Speedy vs Saper 222 (no Saper 222)

[Michael T]

And here lies the problem with this game from day one. In order to try and balance things they muck around with replacement rates (which should be set in stone) rather than fix a combat/logistics model that is out of whack.

[Speedysteve]

Saper has accepted my Surrender so that's that.

M60: I would have lost the following ARM's IF I focussed on Moscow evac and managed to get all of that out:

Stalino - 29
Kramatorskaya - 3
Makeevka - 3
Gorlovka - 3
Taganrog - 2
Voroshilov - 3
Kharkov - 4
Kursk - 2
Kaluga - 8
Tula - 25
Kalinin - 3

= 85

That's me done for now then folks. Ciao.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Disagree. It's not about throwing the towel in because it's not working well. Think about it: I'll be down to 3.7M men once the pockets are gone.

If I retreat I'll lose 80 x ARM, 5 x Vehicle (+ HI) this is if I focus just on evac'ing Moscow AND IF I manage to fully evac knowing there's a massive gap where AGN Panzers can race towards Moscow....You want me to play knowing it will be a no hope and no chance of victory game that will be even more lopsided than the Kamil game?

If I don't run I'll lose another 1-1.5M me + about 1/2 the Industry above.....

Surely you can see that will snowball?

Bummer, but all you say sounds just plainly right. It is unlikely that you'll gain much in the following years given how 41 would end for you.

It is only turn 9 or 10 (8/14), you'll be down to 3.7M men. And note that the SHC has so many logistic and command elements that are manpower hogs, that of those 3.7M not that many are actually in fighting formations (call that poorer C&C, too, Heliodrius). In this game, the balance space in the middle where things move evenly and slowly is tiny, and your losses in men and terrain would quite surely accelerate as you are unlikely to stop him with what you have left. I would expect that you would be below 3.5M come December, and him to have secured at least a line from Chereropets, Gorki, Voronesh to Rostov, if not even further (if railroad and supply allows it).

There won*t be a blizzard offensive worth the name, and how summer 42 would go... not nice, I would expect. You'd make a punching ball for another 2 years, and by 45 maybe have recovered Minsk, but probably not made the German border.

And yes, SHC should be able to absorb such losses and still field some 5M men...

[Speedysteve]

Yup. That's a pretty accurate summary IMO. People have to understand the difference between throwing your 'toys out of the pram' and being a pragmatic realist and understanding when to call it quits.

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: Speedy
People have to understand the difference between throwing your 'toys out of the pram' and being a pragmatic realist and understanding when to call it quits.

Nevah! [:D]
Sorry to see this game end, and hope you get back to the game after a little while.

Terje

[Speedysteve]

Thanks. I'm sure I will. Been around here for years and almost always come back to most of the Matrix Games I've bought....

[randallw]

Tula is one of the tougher places to evacuate; it eats up almost all ( or not just 'almost' ) the rail capacity of one turn.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

OOB:

I'll lose 540,000 men in these pockets (including LG (425,000 excl LG).....

If I hear anymore stuff from Pelton saying the Axis are nerfed in 41 he's gonna get it[;)] [:D]

All these units that have encircled mine are near the end of their supply columns (30-40 SP's)...you wouldn't have thought it.

Problem I have now is I have nowhere to run (without losing VITAL industry) which means either way I'm screwed. If I stay long enough to evac it I'll have no army as it can't fight, attack or move more than 10 miles a day without needing to lay down. If I run I won't have the industry to be able to fight back in later years anyway.

I did not have any problem evacing out industry in my game as SHC and same goes for MT in his dozen or so as SHC.

You simply fought forward which is impossible under the current rulesets for SHC and the same goes for GHC tring to hold the lines during blizzard you will simply get your head handed to you on a plate.

As SHC simply rail a bunch of units to north then work lines north to south. From Tula souht just fall back behind rivers and have a 3 deep checker board with a 3 hex gap between german lines and 1st line of checker board.

Its easy even a 100% newbie like me can hold Moscow/rail out everything other then 35 arm and have close to a 5 million man army by blizzard.

Flaviusx/MT and TDV have figured out how to hold Leningrad most of the time vs skilled players.

2by3 needs to
1.Tweek manpower out put of SHC so the can fight forward
2.Nerf the blizzard
3. Have a turn by turn VP system so both sides do something other then run.

Then game would be less like ball room dancing and more like a death match.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

And here lies the problem with this game from day one. In order to try and balance things they muck around with replacement rates (which should be set in stone) rather than fix a combat/logistics model that is out of whack.

Logistics is now basicly fine ( unless someone has found another exploit). Germans are tied to railheads now finally other then chaining which is easly kept under control.

Combat model is what needs fixing.

[Peltonx]

And yes Speedy the checker board is totally unrealistic

[Klydon]

I think one of the keys for the SHC is to have a good industrial evac plan in place and stick to it. One of the first things is to realize you are going to lose some industry, but while you may lose a little, it isn't enough to cripple you. Flaviusx has expounded on the details of the plan (write off the most forward industry west of the Dnepr). I think one of the things that got Speedy into trouble from what I saw is he didn't have a real organized plan when it came to evacuating industry and when Saper started advancing more quickly, Speedy got behind and as a result now has a lot of industry exposed he can't save.

I also agree on the manpower/reenforcement issues for the Russians. They should be more hardy than they seem to be in game right now in terms of being able to take a pounding and still have enough to keep going. You do anything like historical losses and they are just toast.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
2by3 needs to
1.Tweek manpower out put of SHC so the can fight forward

My ears are bleeding. Pelton is actually proposing that Russian abilities should be increased!? [:'(]

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I also agree on the manpower/reenforcement issues for the Russians. They should be more hardy than they seem to be in game right now in terms of being able to take a pounding and still have enough to keep going. You do anything like historical losses and they are just toast.

+1

I also think Russian C&C for 41-42 should effectively be nerfed: Cost to change leaders should be through the roof or APs received per turn should be minimal. As it is, it's way too easy to maximize Russian leadership in 41-42. A few well placed commanders should be possible, but it should mostly be at Comrade Stalin's whim (ie: executions or all expenses paid vacations to the gulag) that changes commanders.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: Pelton
2by3 needs to
1.Tweek manpower out put of SHC so the can fight forward

My ears are bleeding. Pelton is actually proposing that Russian abilities should be increased!? [:'(]

I have been for the last 6 hmm 9 months, but coupled with other clear things that need to also be nerfed as they are just plainly way to exploitable

[Peltonx]

I beleive MT and myself felt most of this stuff was like candy when we first read the rules on release.

Things that should have been seen as clear exploits, 2by3 spent months and months tweaking.

Hopefully witw is not as easly exploitable on release as wite has been and 2by3 does not have to spend over a yr tweaking things that dummies like me can mess with.

Do it right the first time so the player base stays put for tWiE.

I am very very greatfull that GG has put as much time into these games as they are 2000% better then anything esle out there.

[&o] GG

[Michael T]

Yes WITE is the best PC east front game no question. But it needs work.

If you were to just ramp up Soviet replacements, players would still run. You need both things hand in hand. More or better troops AND a very strong disincentive to run away, severe game losing punishments for giving up too much real estate too fast. Then a real fight in summer 1941 would ensue.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Yes WITE is the best PC east front game no question. But it needs work.

If you were to just ramp up Soviet replacements, players would still run. You need both things hand in hand. More or better troops AND a very strong disincentive to run away, severe game losing punishments for giving up too much real estate too fast. Then a real fight in summer 1941 would ensue.

I wonder if leader executions could be tied to VPs. If the Russian runs, then there's a far greater chance (as history showed) that leaders were sacked/executed. So the Russian could run for the hills, but there'd be a pretty good chance that a leader like Zhukov (and others) would get 'relieved' of command. Even if not executed, it would put a major AP drain on the player to put leaders back in place.

[Michael T]

Yes leader loss could work. Tarhunnas and I were working on some anti run house rules and leader executions were one of the penalties.

[Flaviusx]

If I knew the Red Army could fight forward and afford the losses, I would do so, rules or no rules. The reason I run (in the south anyways, not up north) is precisely because this isn't possible. Running away, for me anyways, is purely an artifact of the Lvov opener (people are still underestimating how much this is distorting the game) and the fragility of the replacement situation.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If I knew the Red Army could fight forward and afford the losses, I would do so, rules or no rules. The reason I run (in the south anyways, not up north) is precisely because this isn't possible. Running away, for me anyways, is purely an artifact of the Lvov opener (people are still underestimating how much this is distorting the game) and the fragility of the replacement situation.

You would fight forward we know, but most would just take the extra troops and send them up north. There would need to be something to give people a reason to fight forward other then there word heheh.

I am for and have been tweaking the lvov pocket, but there has to be a trade off or it will be impossible to get over rivers.

German chances are slim at this point for a min win after .13 patch.