Ulithi

[wdolson]

The port size in game is the max size and complexity of the facilities. The game engine pretty much allows all anchorages, even at level 1 bases, to be infinite. There was some attempt in the AE effort to tie the size and number of ships anchored in a base to the base size, but it was taken out. I don't remember why exactly, but I believe it interfered with something else and there wasn't the time to fix it.

I agree the anchorage size and port size should be two different things. In the real world, if there is enough land around an anchorage, it can usually be built up to level 9. But atolls are a different matter. Places like Ulithi have a massive lagoon which is ideal for anchoring ships, but it has so little land, being able to build a size 6 port there is very generous. In the real war the port probably mazed out around level 2 or 3.

Bill

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Port size in the game drives unload speeds and repair capability. While Ulithi was a vast, relatively safe anchorage, how much shore infrastructure was ever built? If you make it a 6 you're making it roughly a Brisbane, and that's nuts.

I disagree. To have that many ship in a "lagoon harbor" and being able to refuel, resupply and rearm them does give you the same capacity of a size 6 port. It is stupid to think you would just harbor ships there without having the ability to resupply them. Actually it is laughable.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The port size in game is the max size and complexity of the facilities. The game engine pretty much allows all anchorages, even at level 1 bases, to be infinite. There was some attempt in the AE effort to tie the size and number of ships anchored in a base to the base size, but it was taken out. I don't remember why exactly, but I believe it interfered with something else and there wasn't the time to fix it.

I agree the anchorage size and port size should be two different things. In the real world, if there is enough land around an anchorage, it can usually be built up to level 9. But atolls are a different matter. Places like Ulithi have a massive lagoon which is ideal for anchoring ships, but it has so little land, being able to build a size 6 port there is very generous. In the real war the port probably mazed out around level 2 or 3.

Bill

Bill,

I agree with you 100%.

Accounting for tides ... level 2 would be generous ... there isn't all that much land above the high tide mark. Now factor in the Typhoon surge mark and it gets really small. Most of the islands that were built up were volcanic which gave them more high water land ... but of course building on a volcano has its own risks ... [;)]

Lagoons are nice for anchorages, but not that nice for docks. The slope to the land is too gradual in most cases, and so requires a lot of dredging which in this case is cutting into the coral undermining your island. So, the infrastructure that we associate with high level ports is going to be tough to build, and historically it was never built for these reasons.

You devs got it right ....

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Port size in the game drives unload speeds and repair capability. While Ulithi was a vast, relatively safe anchorage, how much shore infrastructure was ever built? If you make it a 6 you're making it roughly a Brisbane, and that's nuts.

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff
I disagree. To have that many ship in a "lagoon harbor" and being able to refuel, resupply and rearm them does give you the same capacity of a size 6 port. It is stupid to think you would just harbor ships there without having the ability to resupply them. Actually it is laughable.

The US had most of the harbor facilities afloat with a large armada of support ships. Virtually all ship services were provided from these support ships.

Bill

[Lee Chard]

Excellent!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Port size in the game drives unload speeds and repair capability. While Ulithi was a vast, relatively safe anchorage, how much shore infrastructure was ever built? If you make it a 6 you're making it roughly a Brisbane, and that's nuts.

I disagree. To have that many ship in a "lagoon harbor" and being able to refuel, resupply and rearm them does give you the same capacity of a size 6 port. It is stupid to think you would just harbor ships there without having the ability to resupply them. Actually it is laughable.

In your haste to post a snarky response you have once again failed to grasp the points in question. So, one more time:

1. Port size in the game drives cargo load/unload rates. Supplies and fuel for storage at ashore facilities such as tank farms and warehouse complexes. Speed is a function of pier services and civilian longshoreman assets. Hence, Brisbane= fast, and a Port Level 0 atoll=slow. If you make the atoll the same level as Brisbane it becomes Brisbane on this measure. But it has no real estate to build those facilities.

2. Ship repair, which you ignore in the reply above, is also a function of port size, the other sources of repair points (naval, support, own-ship, tenders, yards) being equal. Port-based repair point generation is an abstraction of, again, ashore brick & mortar shops combined with a skilled civilian workforce. Brisbane has them, Ulithi does not. Although that guy in the breechclout in the OP's photos could be a skilled pipefitter I suppose. And that other guy in the breechclout might have superior underwater welding skills. Regardless, make Ulithi a Port Level 6, and they'll have to learn.

[Barb]

Actually one can disband his complete USN even into size 0 port.Add lots of AE, AKE, AR, ARD, AG, AD, AGP, AO and whatever else you can think of... And you can rearm, refuel and repair with effect comparable to real-life Ulithi/Kwajalein/Majuro/Manus/Leyte/Kerama Retto advance base.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Actually one can disband his complete USN even into size 0 port.Add lots of AE, AKE, AR, ARD, AG, AD, AGP, AO and whatever else you can think of... And you can rearm, refuel and repair with effect comparable to real-life Ulithi/Kwajalein/Majuro/Manus/Leyte/Kerama Retto advance base.

Right, and that's the gist of wdolson's post above. I agree. The issue here though is whether atolls ought to have in-game Port ratings to reflect their vast anchorage capacity. And the answer is no. Port size in-game is involved in multiple issues, but not anchorage capacity ironically.

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Port size in the game drives unload speeds and repair capability. While Ulithi was a vast, relatively safe anchorage, how much shore infrastructure was ever built? If you make it a 6 you're making it roughly a Brisbane, and that's nuts.

I disagree. To have that many ship in a "lagoon harbor" and being able to refuel, resupply and rearm them does give you the same capacity of a size 6 port. It is stupid to think you would just harbor ships there without having the ability to resupply them. Actually it is laughable.

In your haste to post a snarky response you have once again failed to grasp the points in question. So, one more time:

1. Port size in the game drives cargo load/unload rates. Supplies and fuel for storage at ashore facilities such as tank farms and warehouse complexes. Speed is a function of pier services and civilian longshoreman assets. Hence, Brisbane= fast, and a Port Level 0 atoll=slow. If you make the atoll the same level as Brisbane it becomes Brisbane on this measure. But it has no real estate to build those facilities.

2. Ship repair, which you ignore in the reply above, is also a function of port size, the other sources of repair points (naval, support, own-ship, tenders, yards) being equal. Port-based repair point generation is an abstraction of, again, ashore brick & mortar shops combined with a skilled civilian workforce. Brisbane has them, Ulithi does not. Although that guy in the breechclout in the OP's photos could be a skilled pipefitter I suppose. And that other guy in the breechclout might have superior underwater welding skills. Regardless, make Ulithi a Port Level 6, and they'll have to learn.

Sophistry! I suppose all the CB's on Ulithi does not equate to your ... "brick & mortar shops combined with a skilled civilian workforce". Ahem (ships were made from brick and motar, I thought they were steel[:'(])... Sir you have no idea what your talking about. The US Navy would not base the 3rd/5th Fleet at Ulithi if it could not maintain and supply them there. They did, so Ulithi and Brisbane must be and are effectively equal. One has docks while the other had 100's of small ships doing a similar task as dock. A means to transfer supplies.

[LoBaron]

I am in awe about this exemplary demonstration of inability to comprehend written language. Respect.

[szmike]

[X(]
Thread of the year. [&o][:D]

[warspite1]

Some great pictures there. Love those of the South Dakota [&o]

The CV's all lined up I've seen before - still makes for one hell of an impressive site. An awesome display of sea power.....

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff



I disagree. To have that many ship in a "lagoon harbor" and being able to refuel, resupply and rearm them does give you the same capacity of a size 6 port. It is stupid to think you would just harbor ships there without having the ability to resupply them. Actually it is laughable.

In your haste to post a snarky response you have once again failed to grasp the points in question. So, one more time:

1. Port size in the game drives cargo load/unload rates. Supplies and fuel for storage at ashore facilities such as tank farms and warehouse complexes. Speed is a function of pier services and civilian longshoreman assets. Hence, Brisbane= fast, and a Port Level 0 atoll=slow. If you make the atoll the same level as Brisbane it becomes Brisbane on this measure. But it has no real estate to build those facilities.

2. Ship repair, which you ignore in the reply above, is also a function of port size, the other sources of repair points (naval, support, own-ship, tenders, yards) being equal. Port-based repair point generation is an abstraction of, again, ashore brick & mortar shops combined with a skilled civilian workforce. Brisbane has them, Ulithi does not. Although that guy in the breechclout in the OP's photos could be a skilled pipefitter I suppose. And that other guy in the breechclout might have superior underwater welding skills. Regardless, make Ulithi a Port Level 6, and they'll have to learn.

Sophistry! I suppose all the CB's on Ulithi does not equate to your ... "brick & mortar shops combined with a skilled civilian workforce". Ahem (ships were made from brick and motar, I thought they were steel[:'(])... Sir you have no idea what your talking about. The US Navy would not base the 3rd/5th Fleet at Ulithi if it could not maintain and supply them there. They did, so Ulithi and Brisbane must be and are effectively equal. One has docks while the other had 100's of small ships doing a similar task as dock. A means to transfer supplies.

Huh. So you're agreeing then that Ulithi should in fact be a lower port rating than Brisbane because most of the work is done by 100s of small ships. Those ships are in game, so instead of a higher port rating, you have to move the ships there. I don't mean the LSVP and other boats, I mean the support ships that did the work of repairing, supplying and maintaining the fleet.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I am in awe about this exemplary demonstration of inability to comprehend written language. Respect.

+1

doesn't want to ....

[Symon]

This is a Port.

[Symon]

This is the “Port” of Ulithi; Sorlen Island 1945. Note the vast scale, the extensive cargo handling, distribution, and storage facilities; the drydocks and repair piers; the fabrication shops; the fuel farms and power stations.

Giving it a 3:3 is unbelievably generous. It should be a 0:1. The “actual” base at Ulithi was the USN Service Squadron (1st Advanced Fleet Base), which was “ALL” afloat and could move to and set up anywhere. It picked Ulithi because of the sheer scale of the 100 foot, good holding bottom, protected anchorage footprint.

Obviously The Moose, Obvert, and others, know exactly what they are talking about.

[PaxMondo]

nice shots ... THANKS!

[AW1Steve]

Symon has done , as usual, an outstanding job of making sense out of the mystifying. So I guess the only question in my mind is not if the port is equivalent to Brisbane or whatever, but can you indeed put the right mixture and number of service ships to bring it up to the capability that it had in reality (due to service squadron 10 + others)? [&:] I'm guessing yes.

BTW , bit of trivia. Can anyone tell me the one ship from service squadron 10 that is still there? [&:][:)]

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Symon has done , as usual, an outstanding job of making sense out of the mystifying. So I guess the only question in my mind is not if the port is equivalent to Brisbane or whatever, but can you indeed put the right mixture and number of service ships to bring it up to the capability that it had in reality (due to service squadron 10 + others)? [&:] I'm guessing yes.

Just for grins, here’s Sorlen Island and North Anchorage without the 3rd or 5th Fleet in town. The ships are from R.Adm. P Hendren’s Service Squadron, So Pac Force. I see floating drydocks, AOs, AEs, ARs, hospital ships, supply and refrigerator ships, and a virtual cornucopia of LSTs (some specially configured as ARs, etc..) LCMs, Lighter As, Lighter Ds, etc.. The really big stuff was off the left edge of the photo, in the Pegeef/Asor corner. The fleet anchorages were off the right edge of the picture in the anchorages from MogMog to Eleute.

Don Bowen and I spent months making sure every single relevant ship was in the database and that the code would work with them, for exactly this contingency. Works a bit better in Babes, but it's there for Stock as well.

BTW , bit of trivia. Can anyone tell me the one ship from service squadron 10 that is still there? [&:][:)]

I don't know, but from the nature of your question, I think you do. I would really like to know that. I'm sure Don would like to know that too.

[urtel]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

BTW , bit of trivia. Can anyone tell me the one ship from service squadron 10 that is still there? [&:][:)]

USS Mississinewa AO-59, sunk by jap mini sub...