Question for Those Who Play Japan (Lokasenna welcome now)

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I knew this was gonna be a PITA. Listen Moose this is why I said I didn't want to cause a row. OK, I guess you understand what I'm saying? You are using your knowledge of the rules to spark an event that you have no way of knowing if it would occur IRL to gain a perceived advantage. If you were attempting an invasion to stay fine, but you're not. Again I said, in the context of your game there's absolutely nothing wrong with what you've done. You have no rules. Its not an easy thing to put exact parameters on something like this. Look around you, the world is not black & white, its mostly grey. Some games the Allies could conceivably be invading Japan early. To put some kind of date or whatever on it would also be unfair. The easiest thing would have been to give Japan the option to activate the troops or not. Oh, did I say that outloud, I have no idea how easy it would be to code. I'm not asking the Dev's to change anything here either. I think they have enough on their plate as it is. I'm saying I would not use such a ploy in my games. If you wish to that's fine. I doubt we'll ever be opponents, nothing wrong with that. And if we were I'd accept that this is your style of play. Heck as I said I might even welcome the extra troops as Japan, I've not gotten that far in my games as Japan (v. AI).

I would gladly give Japan the ability to activate this package if I in return got the option to activate the Allied emergency reinforcement package of my choice. I doubt I would have any takers.

Not trying to be a PITA. As I said, I got your point. It's one I've debated many times here on the forum. I tried in my language to be precise as to meaning, which can come across as formal and stiff. I'm not. I just ask that people think through the consequences of their demands, all the way to the end points(s).

On the spectrum of this issue I'm far more against mid-game "It's gamey!" rows than I am on pre-game HRs. Although I don't use those either I can more understand them than changing the rules in mid-stream.

[rustysi]

Yeah, I agree. As for giving the Allies the option to activate their reaction troops or not I have no problem as long as the activation event occurred (crossing whatever line it takes). I'm not sure as to why the Allies would decline to activate them though. Haven't got around to the Allied side yet, though I plan to. Want to eventually play both sides when I start PBEM. BTW I haven't decided yet what HR's I might want to employ, although I can see some already. And yes I will use the same ones no matter what side I'm playing. What' good for the goose is good for the gander.

[rustysi]

Not trying to be a PITA

No, not you Bull, this topic. I knew there was gonna be passion on a topic such as this. I've read many such threads here.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Hello, you answered some of your questions with the snapshots of this thread:

tm.asp?m=2622371&mpage=1&key=Japanese%2 ... einforceme?

On the snapshots:
- they are white
- disband button is not grayed
- they should consume few ARM points, as they are mostly light inexperienced infantry

No, that was my brother. [:)]

Funny thing about memory as you get older. I can recall my 8th grade English teacher's car--make, model, color. I can't recall my first wife's birthday, and I went through twenty of them. I don't recall ever posting those screen-shots. I have looked at the Allied ER posts many times, but not the Japanese. Somewhere in there I remembered "depot", but not the rest. Funny.

Anyway, the reason I asked was this. I'm in late-May 1942 and considering doing an SST landing on Japanese soil to activate the Depots. I realize everything is a trade-off. What I'm trying to do is make them eat HI supply. Lokasenna and I are in a scorched-earth game. He's told me supply is his constant worry as we're playing non-historical R&D and he went a little nuts right away. He's also expanded well past historical limits and is in reality kicking my behind in multiple areas, especially islands. I have let him to some extent since much of my navy has been consumed in an all-out war in the Aleutians which I think I've "won", but at a cost elsewhere. On my side, as I've retreated/been kicked out of Chinese cities, I have visited fire and destruction on the newly-Japanese base as I've been able, focusing on LI, with a view to making him haul supply to western China with all the waste that entails.

The trade-off with the Depots is multi-faceted. They are big but untrained. Six-eight months gets them to national experience averages though. They are pretty filled out, so Arms points don't look like a thing. Most of them can't be disbanded, so they're a little bit of a millstone. They're yellow restricted.

OTOH they're a bunch of decent-sized fighting divisions. Japan as I understand it has PP room in 1943. They could be freed up to go out to many places where a new division would help greatly. The Marianas come to mind right away. If they're not fighting they don't use THAT much supply. I'm not worried about facing them in the HI in 1945. If that happens I did something wrong. I'm worried about them rampaging in the first half of 1943. OTOH, I really need to exert supply pressure to the max right now, as auto-vic is on the table when Chungking falls. (He's relentlessly strat-bombed Chungking out of the supply business. It's getting by on 400/day.)

Looking at my excellent screen-shots [:)] I'm more on the side of not activating than doing so. Any Japan players have an opinion on THAT?

Bullwinkle,

You are underestimating the damage you can do if you pick the right target and launch a proper "volunteers" only mission. The JFBs are just trying to discourage you on purpose.[:)]

1. Only the Guards Depot div comes in at full TOE (actually it is overstrong). The other 9 reinforcing divs come in at only 65% of TOE. That means they will consume many armament and manpower points directly (and even more HI points indirectly).

2. It is absolutely irrelevant that the main component of these divs is "light" infantry. The cost to add a single IJA Infantry squad is based on load cost which is either 17 or 19 (check with editor to see which particular one has been used for these units). Hence the minimum cost, per single squad, is:

17 armament points plus 17 manpower points. Note that indirectly consumes 102 HI points, points which normally would never be used up by a Japanese player before 1945 and therefore unavailable to build advance aircraft in June 1942.

3. Not too many Japanese players build up a large armament pool by mid 1942. They just don't suffer the army losses to require one. their increase in consumption of armament points tends to occur later when they start to get normally scheduled reinforcements. Thus you would be forcing them to change their production priorities away from their beloved advance aircraft.

4. Rare is the Japanese player who has a substantial PP surplus in mid 1942. It will be a tough decision for them to expend PPs now on units which could not be really used on the frontline now (when the divs are cheap being at only 65% of TOE, but still a substantial expenditure) instead of supporting their frontline operations, or waiting until 1943 when PPs may be more plentiful but the divs will be more expensive if filled out.

5. Even if the PPs are spent, they will still use up new cargo space and incur unplanned for fuel consumption in being transported away from the Home Islands. Once there they create additional pressure on the SLOC. Once deposited on islands (which is what your JFBs are suggesting is their preferred use of the divs) you simply bypass them or if they have been deposited on an island which is in the headlights of the 3rd/5th fleets, being starving they present bonus VPs to the Allies.


From the above you can see I would not be deterred. But the trick is to capture a base with industry to make it worthwhile. Refresh your memory with s.13.6 of the manual.

(a) capture a Japanese aircraft factory it should become permanently lost to aircraft production
(b) capture a Japanese HI factory and it's production halves. Hence if initially it is size 100, the Allied capture brings it down to size 50. Then when recaptured by Japan it becomes size 25. It would therefore cost Japan 75k in supplies and 75 days to bring it back to it's original size. Not to mention the lost aircraft production in the meantime
(c) capture Manpower centres and the reduction is down to 10%

Japan starts with little in the Home Islands and most Japanese players do not reinforce the home front at the expense of the frontline. Therefore what you should do is:

(i) find out which production bases start off lightly defended on 7 December 1941
(ii) check through signit to see if they have subsequently been reinforced
(iii) send sufficient force (if necessary on xAP vessels) made up by "volunteers" of course (remember you can subsequently resurrect the destroyed unit). Travel silently
(iv) land and capture by coup de main the industrial centre. You just have to hold for one day to get the benefit

then hear the howls of protest from JFBs (but perhaps not from your opponent) at such a sneaky move. Have no sympathy for them for it will teach them rnot to play a soundly based military operations game using RTS tactics, forgetting all about rear area defence and all the non sexy things which they find to be boring.

Alfred

I guess it gets down to the purpose of playing the game. The additional troops are counter invasion troops - and for Japan they would be poorly trained, bottom-of-the-dregs troops called up for a last-ditch attempt to stave off defeat.

And you don'think this is gaming the system? I mean - the only intent of the counter invasion troops by the designers was for that last-ditch rally, not to use the tactic as a means so bleed your opponent of of HI, supplies, and arms.

How sad that you'd think of this - trying to beat the game and not the opponent.

[guctony]

By the way as side note don't you think that you give IJ time to prepare 10 division. they will have full prep, equipment, Training and moral. I think when they arrive in 1945 or 44 there would be no time for training. And I think 1945 national training level is lower then 1942. Even left in HI now he has more coverage for HI bases in 1945.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: guctony

By the way as side note don't you think that you give IJ time to prepare 10 division. they will have full prep, equipment, Training and moral. I think when they arrive in 1945 or 44 there would be no time for training. And I think 1945 national training level is lower then 1942. Even left in HI now he has more coverage for HI bases in 1945.

It doesn't really matter. Those depot divisions are divisions in name, but almost totally lack firepower compared to even an early US Army division. Even in x3 defensive terrain they struggle to hold on defense. Look at their TOE ... firepower doesn't show up in the combat odds, only AV, but all of us know that firepower is a critical component of any attack/defense. So those depot div's look like ~400AV, but in reality they don't fight at all like 400 AV allied units.

My experience with the depot divisions is that they can withstand one attack, will suffer +40% disablements and corresponding morale loss, and then fold on the next attack. Pretty much in line with my expectations for +45yo troops with 4 weeks training and no arty (as they are intended to represent).

This is in contrast to the US troops who are intended to represent first rate troops diverted from Europe. We are not, and should not, be comparing apples and apples here. These are apples and raisins. [;)]


So, if you train those units up to 80 exp, you will still see the same thing. Use them on attack and disablements/losses will be really high as the units have no organic firepower. They will add to the AV of your attacks, but they will always be very expensive for IJ to use. As someone else noted above, if I was the allies, I would LOVE to give them to the IJ player to use. It will bleed their economy that much faster with a false sense of superiority. As an IJ player, I would hate them as all they will do for me is consume supply the entire game. [:(]

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: guctony

By the way as side note don't you think that you give IJ time to prepare 10 division. they will have full prep, equipment, Training and moral. I think when they arrive in 1945 or 44 there would be no time for training. And I think 1945 national training level is lower then 1942. Even left in HI now he has more coverage for HI bases in 1945.

It doesn't really matter. Those depot divisions are divisions in name, but almost totally lack firepower compared to even an early US Army division. Even in x3 defensive terrain they struggle to hold on defense. Look at their TOE ... firepower doesn't show up in the combat odds, only AV, but all of us know that firepower is a critical component of any attack/defense. So those depot div's look like ~400AV, but in reality they don't fight at all like 400 AV allied units.

My experience with the depot divisions is that they can withstand one attack, will suffer +40% disablements and corresponding morale loss, and then fold on the next attack. Pretty much in line with my expectations for +45yo troops with 4 weeks training and no arty (as they are intended to represent).

This is in contrast to the US troops who are intended to represent first rate troops diverted from Europe. We are not, and should not, be comparing apples and apples here. These are apples and raisins. [;)]


So, if you train those units up to 80 exp, you will still see the same thing. Use them on attack and disablements/losses will be really high as the units have no organic firepower. They will add to the AV of your attacks, but they will always be very expensive for IJ to use. As someone else noted above, if I was the allies, I would LOVE to give them to the IJ player to use. It will bleed their economy that much faster with a false sense of superiority. As an IJ player, I would hate them as all they will do for me is consume supply the entire game. [:(]

The question is, why would you be attacking with the depot divisions? That's not their purpose.

I'm of the opinion that all Japanese LCU's have a use. The Depot Divisions get sent to bases needing garrisons to free up better units for the frontline. The closest the Depot divisions should ever come to the frontline is defending an exposed base from paratrooper attack or defending an island with CD guns (which also solves the lack of artillery problem).

A perfect example of how to use the Depot Divisions would be Truk. It's unlikely the Allies will invade Truk, but at the same time you don't want them to get it on the cheap. Plonk down a Depot division to man the trenches in front of the Naval Fortress and you've a decent defence ready in case the Allies do attack.

If they bypass Truk, well, you've a division cut off, but at least it's not a very good division.

[guctony]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: guctony

By the way as side note don't you think that you give IJ time to prepare 10 division. they will have full prep, equipment, Training and moral. I think when they arrive in 1945 or 44 there would be no time for training. And I think 1945 national training level is lower then 1942. Even left in HI now he has more coverage for HI bases in 1945.

It doesn't really matter. Those depot divisions are divisions in name, but almost totally lack firepower compared to even an early US Army division. Even in x3 defensive terrain they struggle to hold on defense. Look at their TOE ... firepower doesn't show up in the combat odds, only AV, but all of us know that firepower is a critical component of any attack/defense. So those depot div's look like ~400AV, but in reality they don't fight at all like 400 AV allied units.

My experience with the depot divisions is that they can withstand one attack, will suffer +40% disablements and corresponding morale loss, and then fold on the next attack. Pretty much in line with my expectations for +45yo troops with 4 weeks training and no arty (as they are intended to represent).

This is in contrast to the US troops who are intended to represent first rate troops diverted from Europe. We are not, and should not, be comparing apples and apples here. These are apples and raisins. [;)]


So, if you train those units up to 80 exp, you will still see the same thing. Use them on attack and disablements/losses will be really high as the units have no organic firepower. They will add to the AV of your attacks, but they will always be very expensive for IJ to use. As someone else noted above, if I was the allies, I would LOVE to give them to the IJ player to use. It will bleed their economy that much faster with a false sense of superiority. As an IJ player, I would hate them as all they will do for me is consume supply the entire game. [:(]

The question is, why would you be attacking with the depot divisions? That's not their purpose.

I'm of the opinion that all Japanese LCU's have a use. The Depot Divisions get sent to bases needing garrisons to free up better units for the frontline. The closest the Depot divisions should ever come to the frontline is defending an exposed base from paratrooper attack or defending an island with CD guns (which also solves the lack of artillery problem).

A perfect example of how to use the Depot Divisions would be Truk. It's unlikely the Allies will invade Truk, but at the same time you don't want them to get it on the cheap. Plonk down a Depot division to man the trenches in front of the Naval Fortress and you've a decent defence ready in case the Allies do attack.

If they bypass Truk, well, you've a division cut off, but at least it's not a very good division.

My feelings could not be put in words better.

[Amoral]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

So, given that, the question arises if the "gamey" charge is leveled: when is it NOT "gamey" to activate this Japan depot div. package?

If your intention in landing is to force a bad AI decision because you know about a limitation in game mechanics, then your intention is to game the system

If your intention is to land and create havoc (or to land and conquer) your intention is to simulate an operation.

When has nothing to do with it. It is about your intentions, and what the driving objective behind the OP is.

There is nothing wrong with gaming the system. Lots of board games are all about knowing the mechanics and how to use them. It's just important that both sides be on the same page as to "are we playing a game" vs. "are we simulating a conflict".

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Amoral

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

So, given that, the question arises if the "gamey" charge is leveled: when is it NOT "gamey" to activate this Japan depot div. package?

If your intention in landing is to force a bad AI decision because you know about a limitation in game mechanics, then your intention is to game the system

I don't agree with your definitions here. It's not a "limitation" or "not a limitation." It just is. It's the way the game is coded. And as I said elsewhere it's in symmetry with the emergency reinforcement packages of the Allies. Neither player can activate their own packages. Given that I don't find your premises valid, I don't find your conclusion valid either.

If your intention is to land and create havoc (or to land and conquer) your intention is to simulate an operation.

My intention was to land, activate the packages at a known cost to myself, and to cost Japan supplies thereafter for greater strategic reasons. Whether that was a good decision has been debated up-thread, with good arguments for both sides.

When has nothing to do with it. It is about your intentions, and what the driving objective behind the OP is.

When has a great deal to do with it. The decision turns almost completely on "when." It would be dumb to invest a full US Army regiment and two good xAPs in July 1945 to activate these depot divisions in order to consume supply.

There is nothing wrong with gaming the system. Lots of board games are all about knowing the mechanics and how to use them. It's just important that both sides be on the same page as to "are we playing a game" vs. "are we simulating a conflict".

That was agreed to in abundant detail before the game began, and in subsequent emails.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: guctony

By the way as side note don't you think that you give IJ time to prepare 10 division. they will have full prep, equipment, Training and moral. I think when they arrive in 1945 or 44 there would be no time for training. And I think 1945 national training level is lower then 1942. Even left in HI now he has more coverage for HI bases in 1945.

It doesn't really matter. Those depot divisions are divisions in name, but almost totally lack firepower compared to even an early US Army division. Even in x3 defensive terrain they struggle to hold on defense. Look at their TOE ... firepower doesn't show up in the combat odds, only AV, but all of us know that firepower is a critical component of any attack/defense. So those depot div's look like ~400AV, but in reality they don't fight at all like 400 AV allied units.

My experience with the depot divisions is that they can withstand one attack, will suffer +40% disablements and corresponding morale loss, and then fold on the next attack. Pretty much in line with my expectations for +45yo troops with 4 weeks training and no arty (as they are intended to represent).

This is in contrast to the US troops who are intended to represent first rate troops diverted from Europe. We are not, and should not, be comparing apples and apples here. These are apples and raisins. [;)]


So, if you train those units up to 80 exp, you will still see the same thing. Use them on attack and disablements/losses will be really high as the units have no organic firepower. They will add to the AV of your attacks, but they will always be very expensive for IJ to use. As someone else noted above, if I was the allies, I would LOVE to give them to the IJ player to use. It will bleed their economy that much faster with a false sense of superiority. As an IJ player, I would hate them as all they will do for me is consume supply the entire game. [:(]

The question is, why would you be attacking with the depot divisions? That's not their purpose.

I'm of the opinion that all Japanese LCU's have a use. The Depot Divisions get sent to bases needing garrisons to free up better units for the frontline. The closest the Depot divisions should ever come to the frontline is defending an exposed base from paratrooper attack or defending an island with CD guns (which also solves the lack of artillery problem).

A perfect example of how to use the Depot Divisions would be Truk. It's unlikely the Allies will invade Truk, but at the same time you don't want them to get it on the cheap. Plonk down a Depot division to man the trenches in front of the Naval Fortress and you've a decent defence ready in case the Allies do attack.

If they bypass Truk, well, you've a division cut off, but at least it's not a very good division.

How's this for a possible use for these Depot Divs. Send them to the Manchukuo garrison and release some more good divs from there. Don't know how the PP situation would work, but maybe? Then deal with the Russian onslaught later... if you get that far.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: guctony

By the way as side note don't you think that you give IJ time to prepare 10 division. they will have full prep, equipment, Training and moral. I think when they arrive in 1945 or 44 there would be no time for training. And I think 1945 national training level is lower then 1942. Even left in HI now he has more coverage for HI bases in 1945.

It doesn't really matter. Those depot divisions are divisions in name, but almost totally lack firepower compared to even an early US Army division. Even in x3 defensive terrain they struggle to hold on defense. Look at their TOE ... firepower doesn't show up in the combat odds, only AV, but all of us know that firepower is a critical component of any attack/defense. So those depot div's look like ~400AV, but in reality they don't fight at all like 400 AV allied units.

My experience with the depot divisions is that they can withstand one attack, will suffer +40% disablements and corresponding morale loss, and then fold on the next attack. Pretty much in line with my expectations for +45yo troops with 4 weeks training and no arty (as they are intended to represent).

This is in contrast to the US troops who are intended to represent first rate troops diverted from Europe. We are not, and should not, be comparing apples and apples here. These are apples and raisins. [;)]


So, if you train those units up to 80 exp, you will still see the same thing. Use them on attack and disablements/losses will be really high as the units have no organic firepower. They will add to the AV of your attacks, but they will always be very expensive for IJ to use. As someone else noted above, if I was the allies, I would LOVE to give them to the IJ player to use. It will bleed their economy that much faster with a false sense of superiority. As an IJ player, I would hate them as all they will do for me is consume supply the entire game. [:(]

The question is, why would you be attacking with the depot divisions? That's not their purpose.

I'm of the opinion that all Japanese LCU's have a use. The Depot Divisions get sent to bases needing garrisons to free up better units for the frontline. The closest the Depot divisions should ever come to the frontline is defending an exposed base from paratrooper attack or defending an island with CD guns (which also solves the lack of artillery problem).

A perfect example of how to use the Depot Divisions would be Truk. It's unlikely the Allies will invade Truk, but at the same time you don't want them to get it on the cheap. Plonk down a Depot division to man the trenches in front of the Naval Fortress and you've a decent defence ready in case the Allies do attack.

If they bypass Truk, well, you've a division cut off, but at least it's not a very good division.

I was responding to others use of them. Frankly, for me, they have no use except eat supply. By the time they arrive, there aren't any places needing just a garrison. I would not spend PP's to buy them out to send to Truk or MAN or anywhere else. The best use I have found for them is to man some 'beach' hexes in the HI to create a speed bump for when the allies land.

[1EyedJacks]

This is a game, played by two sides with different pieces on the board. This is a competitive game that is very-very time consuming to all involved. A lot is invested by all who play. When I play an opponent I want to better manage, out maneuver, and outperform my opponent. I want to win. And so does my opponent. If comparing myself to the historical equivalent, I’d like to see if I can do better than history, and in truth I expect to as I have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight.

Counter Invasion Troops for Japan are just that – emergency units cobbled together in a last-ditch attempt to stave off defeat. PaxMondo, in a previous post up above, noted that the emergency units of the allies, ostensibly coming into this theatre from Europe, are far superior to what Japan receives and he is correct – at least when you compare the quality of the emergency units.

I submit that the intent of the game developers was to bring forth Counter Invasion Troops to the Japanese side of the board only in the event of a full scale attack of their home islands by the allies, as was actually considered near the end of the pacific war by the American Commander in Chief.

Take a moment to go back and review what Alfred noted in his supportive view of this tactic.
- 9 reinforcement divisions (cobbled units) at 65% of their full strength plus 1 unit that comes onto the board at full strength.
- There is a cost associated with each squad of (I don’t have the editor in front of me but I am pretty sure Alfred was correct here) 17 points of armament, 17 points of manpower, and 102 HI.

I also point out that there are other indirect costs for these units in both supplies and resources for as long as they remain on the board.

Think about this economic impact to Japan from mid-1942 through mid-1945. Just kind of chew upon the support costs for rebuilding, training, and then maintaining 10 extra divisions that stack up poorly (and I’m being charitable in use of the of the word ‘poorly’) to standard Japanese infantry divisions and of which would cost you an arm and a leg to even attempt to deploy off-island in the use of the limited amount of political points that Japan generates. And there is no way for Japan to disband these units either. They can’t take them off the board…

I submit that the cost to Japan’s economy over a 3 year period is the equivalent of 1 or 2 nuclear attacks against Japanese industry if the allies were to trigger the Counter Invasion Forces of Japan through a suicide attack of the home islands.

If, as Alfred states in a previous post up above, it would be considered ‘totally unacceptable for Japan’ to use a *TF of Japan in an attempt to trigger the allied Counter Invasion Troops then I submit it is no less ‘unacceptable’ to enforce Counter Invasion Troops upon Japan that would actually deploy by a Doolittle invasion and of which Japan cannot remove from the board. And since the allies would receive good top-notch infantry divisions for their Counter Invasion Troops, it would in truth be brain-damaged for Japan to even consider this trigger unless they had a massive hammer in the area of the map that such allied troops would arrive at.

In any event if I am playing the side of Japan and you are playing as the allies, and you invoked such a strategy against me I would thank you for the game and tilt my king to you.

[mind_messing]

Think about this economic impact to Japan from mid-1942 through mid-1945. Just kind of chew upon the support costs for rebuilding, training, and then maintaining 10 extra divisions that stack up poorly (and I’m being charitable in use of the of the word ‘poorly’) to standard Japanese infantry divisions and of which would cost you an arm and a leg to even attempt to deploy off-island in the use of the limited amount of political points that Japan generates. And there is no way for Japan to disband these units either. They can’t take them off the board…

Incorrect. They can be disbanded.

See the following - tm.asp?m=2622371&mpage=1&key=Japanese%2 ... einforceme?

ORIGINAL: guctony

By the way as side note don't you think that you give IJ time to prepare 10 division. they will have full prep, equipment, Training and moral. I think when they arrive in 1945 or 44 there would be no time for training. And I think 1945 national training level is lower then 1942. Even left in HI now he has more coverage for HI bases in 1945.

It doesn't really matter. Those depot divisions are divisions in name, but almost totally lack firepower compared to even an early US Army division. Even in x3 defensive terrain they struggle to hold on defense. Look at their TOE ... firepower doesn't show up in the combat odds, only AV, but all of us know that firepower is a critical component of any attack/defense. So those depot div's look like ~400AV, but in reality they don't fight at all like 400 AV allied units.

My experience with the depot divisions is that they can withstand one attack, will suffer +40% disablements and corresponding morale loss, and then fold on the next attack. Pretty much in line with my expectations for +45yo troops with 4 weeks training and no arty (as they are intended to represent).

This is in contrast to the US troops who are intended to represent first rate troops diverted from Europe. We are not, and should not, be comparing apples and apples here. These are apples and raisins. [;)]


So, if you train those units up to 80 exp, you will still see the same thing. Use them on attack and disablements/losses will be really high as the units have no organic firepower. They will add to the AV of your attacks, but they will always be very expensive for IJ to use. As someone else noted above, if I was the allies, I would LOVE to give them to the IJ player to use. It will bleed their economy that much faster with a false sense of superiority. As an IJ player, I would hate them as all they will do for me is consume supply the entire game. [:(]
[/quote]

The question is, why would you be attacking with the depot divisions? That's not their purpose.

I'm of the opinion that all Japanese LCU's have a use. The Depot Divisions get sent to bases needing garrisons to free up better units for the frontline. The closest the Depot divisions should ever come to the frontline is defending an exposed base from paratrooper attack or defending an island with CD guns (which also solves the lack of artillery problem).

A perfect example of how to use the Depot Divisions would be Truk. It's unlikely the Allies will invade Truk, but at the same time you don't want them to get it on the cheap. Plonk down a Depot division to man the trenches in front of the Naval Fortress and you've a decent defence ready in case the Allies do attack.

If they bypass Truk, well, you've a division cut off, but at least it's not a very good division.
[/quote]
I was responding to others use of them. Frankly, for me, they have no use except eat supply. By the time they arrive, there aren't any places needing just a garrison. I would not spend PP's to buy them out to send to Truk or MAN or anywhere else. The best use I have found for them is to man some 'beach' hexes in the HI to create a speed bump for when the allies land.
[/quote]

There's always somewhere that needs a garrison beefed up!

To me, they seem very useful units. Essentially a reinforced mixed regiment with a little heavy artillery. Bullwinke's thread shows them as having a stacking cost of 4.7k - ideal for islands with 6k stacking limits.

Looking at tracker, I suspect they've been beefed slightly to the tune of fifty odd IJA squads.

[Lokasenna]

Only 2 can be disbanded. You're stuck with the rest.

Also, I think Alfred was putting forth the question of a Japanese TF off the coast of the US, triggering CONUS emergency reinforcements, as a hypothetical with an obvious answer - what Allied player wouldn't want the extra units, hrm?

I added up the supply. Out of combat, they're going to eat ~100K supply over 3 years. Triggered in early 1942, by the end of 1942 they're up to 50+ Exp for me. Not terrible. Better than some of the other units I've got. I'll send some of them somewhere, I'm sure.

[rustysi]

I have followed this thread since it first came out. In all fairness to the Moose if you have read it you'll see it is a no holds barred slugfest. There are no PP's (I know I made reference to this above but its been a while since I've been here) to pay for the movement of these units etc. So if he and his opponent have agreed to play this way, and that is my understanding, I say have fun.

[paradigmblue]

ORIGINAL: Amoral

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

So, given that, the question arises if the "gamey" charge is leveled: when is it NOT "gamey" to activate this Japan depot div. package?

If your intention in landing is to force a bad AI decision because you know about a limitation in game mechanics, then your intention is to game the system

Intentions non-withstanding, I have to disagree that landing troops on the Home Islands to generate the troop activation is "gamey". Allied command knew that Japan was strapped for resources during the war, and it's not a unreasonable conclusion that by threatening the Home Islands with ground invasion early in the war would have tied up Japanese manpower and resources on the Home Islands when they would have been better served in New Guinea, China, or the Pacific Islands.

Triggering the AI's response to the invasion threat doesn't seem gamey to me, or even like a particularly ahistorical goal.

[Yaab]

I see no problem provided all the depot divisions can be disbanded. Otherwise, it is gamey in my book.

[Lecivius]

It's no more 'gamey' than the Doolittle raid making Japan keep a large chunk of it's fighter capability flying circles for a few years over the home islands.

My .02

[Amoral]

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

ORIGINAL: Amoral

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

So, given that, the question arises if the "gamey" charge is leveled: when is it NOT "gamey" to activate this Japan depot div. package?

If your intention in landing is to force a bad AI decision because you know about a limitation in game mechanics, then your intention is to game the system

Intentions non-withstanding, I have to disagree that landing troops on the Home Islands to generate the troop activation is "gamey". Allied command knew that Japan was strapped for resources during the war, and it's not a unreasonable conclusion that by threatening the Home Islands with ground invasion early in the war would have tied up Japanese manpower and resources on the Home Islands when they would have been better served in New Guinea, China, or the Pacific Islands.

Triggering the AI's response to the invasion threat doesn't seem gamey to me, or even like a particularly ahistorical goal.

This is a good point.

For me the difference between playing it as a simulation or a game is if you keep in mind what might have happened when you are picking goals or your operations. And as Bullwinkle has said there is a lot of grey area if you are trying to second guess what commanders 70 years ago might have done. For me it is what you as a player were thinking when you set up the dominoes.