Options for Black Sea conflict sparked by attack on offshore facilities?

Take command of air and naval assets from post-WW2 to the near future in tactical and operational scale, complete with historical and hypothetical scenarios and an integrated scenario editor.

Moderator: MOD_Command

Aivlis
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:54 pm

RE: Options for Black Sea conflict sparked by attack on offshore facilities?

Post by Aivlis »

ORIGINAL: mx1

Now, an invasion of Latvia? What for? Please don't say prestige, Putin has all the approval ratings he needs.

While I agree with most points you've made about lack of realism for most of the potential scenarios, the invasion and occupation of Baltic States is quite different. The reasons why Russia would do it are multiple:
a) to reestablish its presence in Baltic and restore territories it held since the end of XVIII century. The 'history politics' has a strong tradition not only in Russia.
b) 'to protect' ethnic Russians in these states - there is around million Russians living in the area - probably the number similar to the number of Russians living in the separatist republics in eastern Ukraine.
c) to reestablish land connection to its Kaliningrad exclave
d) the most important reason is that it is 'low hanging fruit'. While Baltic States are part of NATO, there is no way for NATO to prevent actual invasion, so in order to fullfil its obligations NATO would actually need to attack Russian forces to liberate these countries. So the attacker cost is low, while the defender cost is high. The hybrid war, like the one we see in Ukraine, combined with post-invasion referendum in which 99,8% of Baltic citizens would 'vote' for Russia, is unlikely to trigger fully blown military response from NATO. There will be no formal act of war, no official Russian involvement (Russia would just back up 'governments' created with the aid of 'green men') and referendum will soon prove that majority of citizens accept the new status quo. Would anyone risk the attack on the Russian owned republics to restore its rightful government?

There is really much to gain, with low costs involved. The most important strategic outcome would be the end of NATO as we know it, which in turn would be a great win for Russia. Even if the occupation would be temporary (couple of years) it would still show that diplomatic alliances are worthless against imperialism.

a) Russia lacks a substantial enough Baltic Fleet for a reoccupation of the prebaltika to be of much use, and while historically everyone and their mother have a claim to these lands (polandball can into Baltics!), I don't think they would be worth much after a war, as they aren't particularly rich in resources and industry. The trade ports would be nice, but it would take a huge investment to get them back up and turning a profit.

b) Maybe, but I believe the "protect our minority" was mostly maskirovka during the Ukraine affair. The situation of ethnic Russians in the Baltic countries does indeed lend itself to such ploys. After the dissolution of the USSR, the new governments passed laws making their local languages the only official ones, thus kicking lots of Russian-speakers (who were born and raised there, mind you) out of their jobs in the public sector. So the Russian Federation has, in the past, used that as a scare tactic against the Baltic countries, hinting at the fact they'd have plenty of disgruntled citizens making up a fifth column if push comes to shove. Plus, places like Estonia suffer from the same problem as the Lvov nationalists in the Ukraine: in their antagonism towards the USSR, they fought alongside the Nazi occupiers in 1944-45, thus making themselves an easy target for propaganda (the whole debate around whether that guilt by association is fairly placed or not I'll leave for another time).
It is a valid point you make, but I don't think it would be a main objective in and of itself.

c) Fair enough. But that would mean taking on two NATO member-states for easier logistics and the removal of some nearby NATO assets, so I don't see the cost-benefit calculation coming up positive. I don't recall off the top of my head what's stationed there, but it could actually weight against the decision to attack. If other NATO states lose too many assets in such an operation, they might be more willing, not less, to go to war over the Baltic states.

Now, if Belarus would one day rejoin the RF, then maybe that would make it worthwhile to poke at Lithuania. But I think that's not gonna happen either, not while Lukashenko is alive, and maybe not even afterwards. Consider not just the land, but the infrastructure in it. Without direct, well maintained roads and railroads, holding land is just a liability.

d) That's a very interesting point. If NATO's cohesion was to be questioned, the Baltic states would be a nice place to drive a wedge in an attempt to expose it's lack thereof.
I personally don't see it happening in the near future, not with a weak Europe that hopelessly depends on the US for arms and leadership. But in the next 10-20 years the situation might change.

Lastly, you speak of occupation. I don't think there is a way to make it short. None of those countries are like Crimea, and it would be a costly affair, in the economical and political sense. While many Russians could be easily persuaded to support the Crimean annexation, this was due to the longstanding affinity for the peninsula: it's the site of many historic clashes against foreign interference in Russia (British, French, Ottoman, German...), and a place that Russia spent a lot of time developing. The Baltic republics are seen as a more of a foreign place.
While the RF might have the capability to do it, it would be expensive; consider that even during the Ukraine affair Russia only used it's mechanized forces as a veiled threat against foreign intervention and did not commit them.
User avatar
SeaQueen
Posts: 1436
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:20 am
Location: Washington D.C.

RE: Options for Black Sea conflict sparked by attack on offshore facilities?

Post by SeaQueen »

ORIGINAL: Aivlis
So the best way, in my opinion, to make a scenario believable, is to set up clear win conditions for the Red side, and then think: if you were given such a mission, what are the chances you'd resign on the spot?

I agree. The truth is that most war game scenarios on the internet are just that: Games. They're not believable and they don't necessarily reflect much about the real world at all. The politics driving the underlying conflict "simulated" really amount to an arbitrary device intended to mix up some of one's favorite war wagons and have them shoot simulated weapons at one another in an imaginary world. It's an excuse to build a sandbox. Fun? Yes, but it doesn't really tell you much about how things might shape up in an future conflict.

Lack of understanding of the politics driving conflict and nationalistic bias is definitely one big shortcoming in scenario design.

There's other things that make a lot of these scenarios pretty bad. I was playing one the other day, and I realized that in the first hours of the war, I had exhausted ALL of the air to air missiles available, and I was playing the aggressor side! If I was the leader of a country and I was told by my military advisers that they expected to exhaust their air to air missile inventories in the first few hours of the war, WE WOULDN'T GO TO WAR! The conflict would be foolish to enter into. You don't have the resources to participate in it in the first place. I understand that scenario designers want people to have to plan their use of resources carefully, but that's extreme.

I think the hard thing about simulating conflicts is less understanding the politics and the logistics, though. It's the uncertainty. What causes conflicts to happen is not the actual correlation of forces. It's the perceived correlation of forces. When one nation attacks another, it doesn't do so believing that it's going to lose. It attacks another because it thinks it's going to win with a relatively minimal amount of effort.

Even without the propaganda, governments hide their actual intentions, often for good reason. If they said exactly what they were trying to accomplish, organizations with opposing aims might be better at stopping them! Governments are bureaucracies, which are composed of people and are subject to all the failings of both institutions and humans. How many pages have been written about the institutional failures of the CIA to predict the 9-11 attacks, or the oedipal motivations which contributed to the second Gulf War?

As a result of all this uncertainty, independent of propaganda and popular culture, it's very hard to say exactly what or who the next Bad Guy(TM) actually will be. Ten years ago, who ever thought that Al Qaeda and the US Government would ever share a common foe? It's a very complicated world out there.

What conflicts do you think might be brewing that don't get enough attention?
User avatar
Gunner98
Posts: 5967
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:49 am
Location: The Great White North!
Contact:

RE: Options for Black Sea conflict sparked by attack on offshore facilities?

Post by Gunner98 »

The one thing that I notice in a lot of the "Cold War 2.0" scenarios is a disregard for a believable strategy or goals on the Russian side, which is also invariably the antagonist.

Guilty as charged - sort of.

'Cold War 2.0' scenarios are both interesting and fun, they pit evolving technologies against another superpower which could actually give a good fight against them. The 'what if' question of these alternate histories is, to me anyways, fascinating.

Many commentators would say that the Ragin administration's policies ended the Cold war because they forced the Soviet Union to literally spend itself into oblivion, just trying to keep up. Risky strategy, what if it didn't work? Would the US expenditures on defense and technology actually prove worthwhile if the Soviets were able to keep apace and develop their own? Without a 'Cold War 2.0', any scenario involving the US in the 90's or early 00's needs to be very contrived to be anywhere near balanced. Pit an Aim-7 equipped F-15 against that Su-27 and you have a different fight!

I agree whole heartedly with most of your points - no PVO Commander, or right minded commander anywhere, would commit his valuable resources to a suicide mission, he would find the strength vs weakness seam between the two sides and exploit that. The trick is finding those seams, and that's the fun of the game, there will be trial and error on both sides, I think that's real as well.

Some of the modern stuff just doesn’t grab my interest, F-22’s and F-35’s taking out truck convoys or patrol boats – it’s just too lopsided and sometimes smacks of western imperialism.

Not all scenarios are created equal, and many are built by guys who are either just learning the editor, or built for guys who are just learning the game; a ‘Cold War 2.0’ is easy fodder for that. But we do pander to stereotypes, and what is more stereotypical than 'The Russians are coming!' It was a reality for 40 years and burned into the western psyche.

I would agree with the points on testing NATO’s commitment to collective defense of the Baltic states. Most Canadians probably couldn’t point out where they are on a map. But I’ve spoken to many Lithuanians and Estonians who completely believe that they are secure with NATO at their back. Interesting conundrum, and I believe a case where NATO’s short sighted strategy of ‘if you’re my friend – you’re not my enemy’ is coming back to haunt the future.

Back to designing a ‘Cold War 2.0’ scenario…[:D]
Check out our novel, Northern Fury: H-Hour!: http://northernfury.us/
And our blog: http://northernfury.us/blog/post2/
Twitter: @NorthernFury94 or Facebook https://www.facebook.com/northernfury/
Post Reply

Return to “Command: Modern Operations series”