ComFleetAirWest

[witpqs]

Oops, Matt already covered it better. [8D]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Resurrecting this thread.

If you check both stock and DBB scenarios, you will see that the first unrestricted US Army HQ available is Southwest Pacific, which arrives in April, 1942 in Australia. Now, on 8th December 1941 as the Allied player I have several US Army units (inf, AA, BFs) that I would like to ship outside CONUSA, preferably attaching them to an unrestricted land US Army HQ. However, I don't have any such HQ to attach it! If I want to ship a US Army unit out of USA I have to attach it eiter to navalHQ or air HQ. In the stock scenarios, there is at least this fictional, unrestricted US Marines Corp HQ, but in DBB there is no such thing. So, attaching land units to an air HQ or naval HQ is not an exlpoit or trick, but a necessity. Obviously, I cannot wait until Apirl 1942 in order to ship my first units out of USA, while the Jap player will have covered all bases in the Pacific by that date.

I have a hard time imagining that there was no US Army HQ structure for Pacific between December 1941 and April 1942 in RL.

The game designates certain HQ as Command HQ rather than Army, Navy, etc. PacAO (that's the DBB name, might be different in stock) is a command HQ and you can certainly assign those USA units to PacAO if you like. It's not any kind of cheating or gaming the system.

The issue of assigning units to an HQ that requires less PP to make the unit unrestricted is a different issue and should (IMO) be handled by player agreement. Personally I don't do it, but I know opinions vary. I guess there are also some cases where such is intended so as to reflect historical command structure changes.

Edited to fix "do" was meant to be "don't".

Should be PacOA - the word Oceans coming before the word Areas.
Pacific Fleet HQ in stock changes to PacOA very soon after the war starts.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: US87891

ORIGINAL: Yaab
I don't plan to edit. I have always shipped the initial ground units by attaching to them available naval, air or marines HQ. Today it dawned on me that US Army only has land HQ structures for Luzon and CONUSA, and has zero HQ structure between them until April 1942. Weird. Were the units subordinated to naval/air in RL or they were all independent?

Depended on the theater, but land and naval forces were never ever subordinated to air HQs, anywhere, any time, except for airfield construction assets or airbase AA defense/security units. Otherwise, units reported to ground or naval command, depending on the organizational structure of the different theaters.

The forerunner to SWPac was ABDA, which controlled all land, sea, air, assets in the area bounded by PI, Malaysia, and Australia. The tactical command structure was primarily the pre-existing Dutch one, overlayed with a mélange of international commanders. The PI was a different beast and conformed to MacArthur’s requirements, which were ad-hoc and changed from time-to-time as circumsyances dictated. MacArthur was evacuated; experienced staff elements were not.

In SWPac, in the beginning, MacArthur had no US Army subordinate command units. There were no higher echelon troops, no trained staffs, no facilities; nothing except a couple divisions worth of untrained, inexperienced, semi-equipped, indifferently officered, recruits. Commanding both US and Aus forces, MacArthur used what was available; Australian staffs and commands, under the rubric Allied Land Forces, under Blamey (New Guinea Force, 1 Corps, 2 Corps, etc.). After US troops were deemed fit for combat (after 6 to 9 months of intensive training), they were assigned to Australian commands for operations. MacArthur did not request a US Corps level HQ staff until Aug 1942. Eichelburger’s I Corps activated October 1942, under command of 1st Aus Army (Laverack). Even though active, I Corps was not initially operational. At Buna, Eichelberger only commanded the US units under the overall command of Aus Gen Herring (technically, Aus I Corps). Vasey commanded the Australian units, also under Herring. The first true US Army planning/operational control HQ, in SWPac, was Krueger’s Sixth US Army, activated February 1943.

There was neither need nor scope for operational US Army Corps and Army level HQs until Elkton/Cartwheel.

In CenPac and SoPac, everything was under overall Navy command, with a ComAirxxPac Admiral commanding USN, USMC, and USAAF units, eventually with a USAAF General as deputy.

All ground forces were also under overall Navy command, with planning and operational control initially in the Navy’s hands, but handed off to the USMC unit commander once established. There was neither scope nor need for Corps and Army level HQs (either USMC or USA) until the end of 1942, when XIV Corps (Patch) took over tactical command from ‘TF Vandegrift’ on Guadalcanal, December 1942.

In the beginning, and for at least twelve to eighteen months, all higher echelon ground force staffs were fully utilized for theater unit training and logistical establishment and build-up (whether USA or USMC). There were neither people nor institutional resources available for anything else. Division level was the highest functional tactical command echelon for a long time, excepting SWPac, which used Australian structure as the intermediate.

Thanks! I completely forgot about ABDA. I was checking US Army HQs only. Talk about the disruptiveness of hindsight on planning: I treated everything west of Port Moresby as a done deal (Japs will conquer DEI and Malaysia anyway) and was prepping myself for defensive actions ins SoPac. Also, thanks for clearing the issue between air and naval HQ attachments. Seems right now, the best would be to attach the land units to either Pacific Command or ABDA, depending on where the units will be used.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: US87891

MacArthur did not request a US Corps level HQ staff until Aug 1942. Eichelburger’s I Corps activated October 1942, under command of 1st Aus Army (Laverack). Even though active, I Corps was not initially operational. At Buna, Eichelberger only commanded the US units under the overall command of Aus Gen Herring (technically, Aus I Corps). Vasey commanded the Australian units, also under Herring. The first true US Army planning/operational control HQ, in SWPac, was Krueger’s Sixth US Army, activated February 1943.

One slight variation; Austro-American land command relationships were not quite as smooth as the OOB tree suggests. Maj Gen R C Richardson had been 'felt out' for command of I Corps, but ducked it because he did not want to take orders from an Australian Army (NGF was expanding into an army level HQ by process of osmosis) or land forces (Blamey) commander. Richardson had been to Australia in 1942, so if he had the misfortune to meet Blamey, his reaction could be assessed as perfectly reasonable.

Also ironically, Eichelberger had no choice in the matter, but when he arrived, MacArthur created "Alamo Force" directly subordinate to SWPAC so that it wouldn't fall within the the SWPAC/Australian state of command anyway. Personally, I quite like Robert Lawrence Eichelberger, who in corps command was 'up front' and exposed to enemy fire.

After 6th Army was established under Kreuger, Eichelberger, with his corps staff, was sidelined on training duties in Australia for a time. The War Department twice wanted to move him to Europe - in command of 1st Army, and later 9th - but MacArthur blocked any transfer. MacArthur also blocked an MOH recommendation, based on his exposing himself to Japanese fire at Buna, to get the troops moving. Eventually, MacArthur must have decided he was no longer a publicity threat, and he got back into the saddle. He would have commanded 8th Army in the proposed Coronet operation.

As for Maj Gen Richardson, he spent most of the war as military governor of Hawaii, where his lasting claim to fame is that he managed to get himself convicted for contempt of a civil court when he refused to produce a couple of internees under a writ of habeas corpus.

[Lawless1]

I am one of those extremists which would like to ban unit transfers to not-yet-active HQs. It is defying logic to transfer command to a void.

LargeSlowTarget in the stock GC and DBB Lite A sCN #26 the following units are already assigned to SWPAC, which has not arrive as of Dec 7, 1941.

898th EAB @Tacoma
205th FA BN @ March Field
48th AU BN @ PM
114th USAAF BF, 115th USAAF BF, 147th FA RGT, 148th FA BN, 131th FA BN embarked in TF407
Torres Straight BN @ Horn Island

Since these units are already assigned to HQ that hasn't arrive, would you still consider it gamey if additional units were assigned to SWPAC? You are still paying full PP to reassign any unit to SWPAC.

[LargeSlowTarget]

I have not said it is gamey, it is just not logical.

The fact that some units start assigned to SWPac is due to game engine restrictions and scenario design decisions.

Historically correct, the units of the Pensacola convoy and other units earmarked for the PI for example should be under USAFFE command. However, since USAFFE is a restricted command in the game, the earmarked units would be unable to load on ships and would have to be bought-out with PPs to an unrestricted HQ. Furthermore, they would most probably never make it to USAFFE anyway and end-up assigned to some other HQ. So, it makes sense that they are assigned to SWPac.

However, in a perfect game, the said units should not be assigned to SWPac at the game start because SWPac HQ did not exist at the start of the war. Said units should be assigned to a different unrestricted HQ or should be "independent" like some air groups are. Historically, the units on the Pensacola convoy came under the command of the "United States Forces in Australia (HQ USFIA)" Command, effective December 22, 1941 - under BGen Barnes, the ranking officer of the Pensacola Convoy. The scenario designers could have created such an HQ, or a generic HQ unit called "Independent ground forces" or "Unassigned ground forces". But the fact that from the game mechanics POV it does not matter since the chain of command has not been implemented, they probably did not deem it worth the hassle.

Finally, since the game charge PPs for changing unrestricted units, it is ok to assign restricted units directly to the intended unrestricted command, even if the unrestricted HQ is not in the game yet. I do this myself, since the current game leaves no choice. My comment about not allowing this was made with the provision that changing unrestricted units should not cost PPs.

[witpqs]

The part of my comment about not gamey was because I presume that's what some people were considering.

The logical part is where historical reality gave way to the restrictions of the computer code. They had to make it function as closely as they could within those limitations.

[Lawless1]

LST, ah ha, my misunderstanding of what I read. It would have been great if scenario designers could have created such an HQ,("United States Forces in Australia (HQ USFIA)" Command, effective December 22, 1941 - under BGen Barnes), or a generic HQ unit called "Independent ground forces" or "Unassigned ground

[rustysi]

My comment about not allowing this was made with the provision that changing unrestricted units should not cost PPs.

Within the context and constraints of the game mechanics, I wish this were true.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Resurrecting this thread.

If you check both stock and DBB scenarios, you will see that the first unrestricted US Army HQ available is Southwest Pacific, which arrives in April, 1942 in Australia. Now, on 8th December 1941 as the Allied player I have several US Army units (inf, AA, BFs) that I would like to ship outside CONUSA, preferably attaching them to an unrestricted land US Army HQ. However, I don't have any such HQ to attach it! If I want to ship a US Army unit out of USA I have to attach it eiter to navalHQ or air HQ. In the stock scenarios, there is at least this fictional, unrestricted US Marines Corp HQ, but in DBB there is no such thing. So, attaching land units to an air HQ or naval HQ is not an exlpoit or trick, but a necessity. Obviously, I cannot wait until Apirl 1942 in order to ship my first units out of USA, while the Jap player will have covered all bases in the Pacific by that date.

I have a hard time imagining that there was no US Army HQ structure for Pacific between December 1941 and April 1942 in RL.

Re-resurrecting this thread.

The USMC HQ is stock is very real. From Rottman, US Marine Corps World War II Order of Battle pages 101-2, 107: "Pacific Fleet Amphibious Corps . . . the 2nd Joint Training Force was formed on 1 November 41 under the command of MajGen Clayton Vogel, who also doubled as Commanding General, FMF, San Diego Area. It's mission [was to] train the 2nd Marine Division and the Army's 7th Division. On 10 Feb 42, the Force was redesignated Amphibious Force, Pacific Fleet. On 1 April 42 the Force was again redesignated Amphibious Corps Pacific Fleet (PhibCorpsPacFlt) . . . I Marine Amphibious Corps (IMAC) was established on 1 Oct 42 at San Diego under the command of MajGen Clayton Vogel and his former PhibCorpsPacFleet staff. The corps departed for the South Pacific that same month." In 1944, the Corps was redesignated IIIMAC.

If the US had deployed a Corps overseas in the winter of 1941-42, this would have been the HQ. It didn't become a combat corps command until the US decided it needed a higher headquarters overseas in October, 1942. But it was the same HQ (albeit twice renamed), with the same staff and commander as in November 1941.

So does the HQ arrive in November, 1941; February 1942; April 1942; or October 1942? This is a game-design decision. In stock AE we decided to have the unit available as a Corps HQs from the start. In DBB the designers tied its availability to its historic deployment. Both choices have advantages, and drawbacks.

[Yaab]

Nice info. Makes more sense to attach the early US Army units to this Marine pseudo-corps HQ than to air and naval ones.

[spence]

It's mission [was to] train the 2nd Marine Division and the Army's 7th Division.

The 7th US Army Division is the same division that starts Dec 1941 in San Francisco as a motorized division (and assigned to a restricted HQ)? And gets converted to an infantry division later to invade Attu? Was another US Army division assigned to replace the 7th (since the 7th is restricted at start)?

A similar organization was formed at Camp Lejeune about Nov 1941 involving the 1st Marine Division and 1st US Army Infantry Division. I think a group of transports was concurrently assigned to practice amphibious assault techniques. Of course subsequently, the 1st Mardiv went to the Pacific and the 1st InfDiv went to the Atlantic (further info at USCG Historians website)

[Blackhorse]

The 7th US Army Division is the same division that starts Dec 1941 in San Francisco as a motorized division (and assigned to a restricted HQ)? And gets converted to an infantry division later to invade Attu? Was another US Army division assigned to replace the 7th (since the 7th is restricted at start)?

Spence,

No. The 7th replaced the 3rd. According to Rottman, "after exercising in Washington state, the planned Hawaiian exercise (7th Infantry and 2nd Marine) was cancelled when the war broke out." There is no indication that any other Army division was assigned.

Per Stanton's World War II Order of Battle, the 7th Infantry became a test-bed division and was redesignated the 7th Motorized Division 9 Apr 42. The experiment failed, and the Army abandoned the motorized division concept. The division was redesignated the 7th Infantry in January, 1943, and deployed overseas in April.

In the game, there is no way to 'unrestrict' a permanently restricted unit. So the 7th Motorized Division (permanently restricted) withdraws in February, 1943. The 7th Infantry Division arrives, unrestricted, in March 1943, able to deploy.

FWIW, the Motorized Division concept failed because it required as much sealift to carry it overseas as an armored division, but had the firepower of an infantry division. It was unsuitable for where the Army was going to do most of its fighting in the Pacific. Finally, the US Army's 'leg' infantry divisions already had as many trucks as the motorized divisions of other countries. A standard infantry division had enough trucks to carry 1/3 of the division at a time.

[Blackhorse]

A similar organization was formed at Camp Lejeune about Nov 1941 involving the 1st Marine Division and 1st US Army Infantry Division. I think a group of transports was concurrently assigned to practice amphibious assault techniques. Of course subsequently, the 1st Mardiv went to the Pacific and the 1st InfDiv went to the Atlantic (further info at USCG Historians website)

Spence,

You are spot on. That Corps HQ - formed in June 41 and commanded by Holland M. "Howling Mad" Smith - also went through a bewildering number of name changes before, and at the beginning of the war. Here's an interesting nugget from Rottman that you caused me to unearth:

"Besides training the 1st Marine Division, the Corps, under its various names, also trained the Army 1st and 9th Divisions. From 1941 and into 1942, concerns regarding the position of the government of Brazil and its pro-axis army led to the preparation of the 1st Marine and 9th Divisions to execute an amphibious assault to seize some airfields, some of which were in use by US aviation, in northeast Brazil. Plan RUBBER was cancelled in Feb 42."

[spence]

Took a while since they reorganized the USCG website but here's the story of pre-WW2 joint amphibious training between the USMC and USCG.

https://media.defense.gov/2017/Jun/26/2 ... LL2011.PDF