West Front Safe Level

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:07 pm

Hi guys,

Anyone know the minimum strength required to avoid a shatter in the West Front in clear 1944?

I thought that it was 8000 ( Allied strength of 6500 + 1500 if leader check fails ) but no!!! in the game against K62 the front shattered with 9300 of strength:(

Surely I miss out something but I dont know what.

For more details I still was defending France. I say that because I noticed that, for exemple, the Sud Front shatters always in 1944 with clear weather when you defend Italy. The amount of strength you have in it is not considered.

Thank you.

K.J.001 · Post by **K.J.001** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:20 pm

Despite being a newbie, let me venture my opinion.

Josan, I suppose that the Western Front must have shattered around June 1944. According to this thread, the strength of the Axis at the Western Front would be reduced to half (or maybe even a third) strength in accordance with the historical invasion of Normandy. I would presume that the same would be true of the Italian Front as well.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:24 pm

Josan,

There are special adjustments made for both fronts that can result in a reduction in Axis strength for the vent checks, based on geographical position and the current game time. For example, in the West front, if you are still in Normandy in 1944, the Axis strength is reduced for the check by half or more. For Italy, a front location outside mainland Italy (Sicily is outside the mainland) will result in a similar reduction. These reductions pretty much guarantee an event at some point, whereas in the original version the events were guaranteed on certain dates based on historical events. And now, the strength when an event happens is used to calculate the time time for the next event check, with a safe period to build up again that is longer the stronger the front was when it collapsed. The readme file should discuss this some.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:26 pm

Originally posted by K.J.001
Despite being a newbie, let me venture my opinion.

Josan, I suppose that the Western Front must have shattered around June 1944. According to this thread, the strength of the Axis at the Western Front would be reduced to half (or maybe even a third) strength in accordance with the historical invasion of Normandy. I would presume that the same would be true of the Italian Front as well.

Thank you K.J.001 !!! I forgot this thread. Very useful.

Always learning something new. For that I love this game.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:40 pm

Originally posted by RickyB
Josan,

There are special adjustments made for both fronts that can result in a reduction in Axis strength for the vent checks, based on geographical position and the current game time. For example, in the West front, if you are still in Normandy in 1944, the Axis strength is reduced for the check by half or more. For Italy, a front location outside mainland Italy (Sicily is outside the mainland) will result in a similar reduction. These reductions pretty much guarantee an event at some point, whereas in the original version the events were guaranteed on certain dates based on historical events. And now, the strength when an event happens is used to calculate the time time for the next event check, with a safe period to build up again that is longer the stronger the front was when it collapsed. The readme file should discuss this some.

Thank you Ricky!!!

I thought that the automatical events had dissapear fully.

So, if I´m not wrong, now in 1944, in order to save the western german army, is better shatter the front until the West Wall event (or just only normandy? ) because there are not enough strength to secure it.Is this correct?

Thank you again:)

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 5:34 pm

Josan,

I believe it is just the first event in the west, the actual invasion, where the Axis strength is reduced in 1944. After that, I think the strength stays high.

If you are talking about forcing an early event by stripping the front (shudder-that is pretty gamey and why the rules were changed

) and then returning the forces when safe, you can do that but it is possible another event can occur before the units put back into place recover their readiness and return to full strength (to help fight any gaminess:D ). I actually proposed having 2 events at once if the front was extremely weak but Arnaud thought that was too much unfortunately.

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 8:24 pm

Originally posted by RickyB
Josan,

If you are talking about forcing an early event by stripping the front (shudder-that is pretty gamey and why the rules were changed ) and then returning the forces when safe, you can do that but it is possible another event can occur before the units put back into place recover their readiness and return to full strength (to help fight any gaminess:D ). I actually proposed having 2 events at once if the front was extremely weak but Arnaud thought that was too much unfortunately.

Yes Ricky but its very hard sit quietly knowing the front will shatter with a good strength in it.:rolleyes:

Denniss · Post by **Denniss** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 9:57 pm

Place an empty HQ next to the Western/Italian front and move all units into this empty HQ to force an event

Then move them back

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:49 pm

Originally posted by Denniss
Place an empty HQ next to the Western/Italian front and move all units into this empty HQ to force an event

Then move them back

Yes Denniss I knew that. Thanxs.

I think is a valid strategy force an event and now more when, as Ricky said, there is a true danger that the front shatters before you get the strength required. It would be a player decision.

K62_ · Post by **K62_** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 2:12 am

Originally posted by Denniss
Place an empty HQ next to the Western/Italian front and move all units into this empty HQ to force an event

Then move them back

That's sooo gamey :rolleyes: We should stop doing it

Denniss · Post by **Denniss** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:05 pm

It's a strategic retreat for me - something Hitler did not use/allow at all
In Stalingrad he lost a lot of men and weapons/tanks for nothing - with a strategic retreat a lot of them would have been rescued to be used to stabilize the front

This is not gamey or cheating for me

Denniss · Post by **Denniss** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:08 pm

Originally posted by Josan
Yes Denniss I knew that. Thanxs.

I think is a valid strategy force an event and now more when, as Ricky said, there is a true danger that the front shatters before you get the strength required. It would be a player decision.

If the forces are transfered into an empty HQ located next to the Western/Italian HQ then readiness lost is not very high so usually no problem with a new event in the next turn

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:00 pm

Originally posted by Denniss
It's a strategic retreat for me - something Hitler did not use/allow at all
In Stalingrad he lost a lot of men and weapons/tanks for nothing - with a strategic retreat a lot of them would have been rescued to be used to stabilize the front

This is not gamey or cheating for me

The whole idea of the "events" is to represent a battle taking place in the area involved. When these events happen, in all but one case, the front shatters, which means the losses are limited. There are essentially no or only minor losses in between events, so by stripping the front, it basically is saying that there is no combat in the area at all, inlcuding air combat, etc, which is a little silly. So to me waiting until you know something can happen, then stripping the front to avoid the limited losses that would occur is gamey, using the game engine to avoid this action which is not historical at all. Not cheating, but not historically possible either, so therefore gamey.

K62_ · Post by **K62_** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:38 pm

Originally posted by RickyB
The whole idea of the "events" is to represent a battle taking place in the area involved. When these events happen, in all but one case, the front shatters, which means the losses are limited. There are essentially no or only minor losses in between events, so by stripping the front, it basically is saying that there is no combat in the area at all, inlcuding air combat, etc, which is a little silly. So to me waiting until you know something can happen, then stripping the front to avoid the limited losses that would occur is gamey, using the game engine to avoid this action which is not historical at all. Not cheating, but not historically possible either, so therefore gamey.

Couldn't have expressed it better myself

What I would add is that it would have been totally alien to Hitler's thinking and ruinous for his credibility to just abandon large areas of territory. IMHO, a good fix for this would be increasing a lot the attrition losses (to 5-10% per week, now thay are barely noticeable) in the west fronts when combat is actually occuring, i.e. in the South Front all the time and in the West Front after the Normandy landing takes place

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:55 pm

So I´m the only one that empty the Sud Front when fighting in the Sicily Event? The forces are halved in the HQ so have not sense defend the island. If I strip the HQ (a withdraw for me) is not gamey just a strategy decision.

Just true for West Front.

At less would be fine have an opportunity to fight.

K62_ · Post by **K62_** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:10 pm

No, you're not the only one

I mean, it's the logical thing to do the way the game is. But I think it's kinda gamey and was suggesting a house rule or something against it

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:24 pm

Originally posted by K62
No, you're not the only one I mean, it's the logical thing to do the way the game is. But I think it's kinda gamey and was suggesting a house rule or something against it

Wow, I´m not the only one:D A new house rule you say:(
Maybe is better do two events at the same time if the forces in the HQ are very weak as Ricky said. Another house rule now...

Anyway, with the new improvements about the Events, if you strip the fronts very happily, you can face a hard problem.

I thought that WiR had some strategic complements. If I cant withdraw from France, even the East Front is broken and the soviets racing for Berlin, just leave me shocked:eek: I dont think this is gamey.As said before, a strategical decision.

K62_ · Post by **K62_** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:38 pm

Originally posted by Josan
Wow, I´m not the only one:D A new house rule you say:(

I thought that WiR had some strategic complements. If I cant withdraw from France, even the East Front is broken and the soviets racing for Berlin, just leave me shocked:eek: I dont think this is gamey.As said before, a strategical decision.

No no no, I didn't mean for our current game. I mean - for future games - would people think it would be nice - for a more historical and enjoyable game - to do something to limit it - so that Germans do get some serious losses from the Western Allies - like they historically did. Voila!

BTW, I am usually against adding new house rules during the game - especially when it's disadvantageous for one of the sides

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:54 pm

Originally posted by K62

BTW, I am usually against adding new house rules during the game - especially when it's disadvantageous for one of the sides

Yes, I know:p

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:43 pm

Originally posted by K62
I mean - for future games - would people think it would be nice - for a more historical and enjoyable game - to do something to limit it - so that Germans do get some serious losses from the Western Allies - like they historically did. Voila!

I forgot to post, if I´m not wrong there is some kind of attrition in the western Hqs. Here is the way to get losses due allies action !!!. Maybe should be higher the losses that is right now but this would be the way. Every year higher than before showing the allies activities.

West Front Safe Level

West Front Safe Level

You said it Ricky