Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You're welcome! [:)]

One thing about those CPs - due to the phasing of end of turn versus conquest, if they don't leave Iceland or Greenland then they get overrun and rebase but are then face down until the end of the upcoming turn (unless re-orged).

no

the hexes are neutral, not enemy controlled

the naval units are not overrun, they just stay in that neutral port. then the controller can move them when he wishes.

No, they can not remain in a neutral hex. Although you are right in that they are not overrun. They are simply forced to rebase.

I've never considered the difference because I never had any disorganized ships in a port that became neutral so being forced to rebase and being overrun was the same result. I am sorry about that. Thank you Michael for pointing out the difference. [:)]

the game is coded that way, as it make no difference if they stay in the hex.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


no

the hexes are neutral, not enemy controlled

the naval units are not overrun, they just stay in that neutral port. then the controller can move them when he wishes.

No, they can not remain in a neutral hex. Although you are right in that they are not overrun. They are simply forced to rebase.

I've never considered the difference because I never had any disorganized ships in a port that became neutral so being forced to rebase and being overrun was the same result. I am sorry about that. Thank you Michael for pointing out the difference. [:)]

the game is coded that way, as it make no difference if they stay in the hex.

It can make a difference. If they are rebasing, then I think Axis forces are allowed to try and intercept them.

And if they are re-based it will take oil to reorganize them.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Orm



No, they can not remain in a neutral hex. Although you are right in that they are not overrun. They are simply forced to rebase.

I've never considered the difference because I never had any disorganized ships in a port that became neutral so being forced to rebase and being overrun was the same result. I am sorry about that. Thank you Michael for pointing out the difference. [:)]

the game is coded that way, as it make no difference if they stay in the hex.

It can make a difference. If they are rebasing, then I think Axis forces are allowed to try and intercept them.

And if they are re-based it will take oil to reorganize them.

the rules clearly say that the only are forced to rebase if they are in enemy hexes.

war ships often stayed in neutral ports.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

the rules clearly say that the only are forced to rebase if they are in enemy hexes.

war ships often stayed in neutral ports.

Could you, please, show me where the rules clearly say that they are only forced to rebase when they are in enemy hexes.

And I would love to base my U-boats, and submarines, in neutral ports. Like Spain.

[Centuur]

First: here is the rule in incomplete conquest for determining influence:

RAW:

Use this priority to determine who has the greatest influence:
1. Whoever controls most factories in the home country (with the
capital counting as an additional 3 factories for this calculation).
2. Whoever has the highest garrison value (see 13.1) in the home
country.
3. Whoever occupied the home country’s last factory or capital
city.


Further in the rules on conquest, one finds these rules:

RAW:

Each remaining territory and conquered home country it controls
becomes controlled by the major power with the greatest influence in
that country or territory (see incomplete conquest above). If no-one
has any influence there, that territory or home country becomes
neutral. Each neutral territory may subsequently be declared war on as
if it were a minor country.
All naval units now in enemy controlled hexes are treated as if they
had been overrun (see 11.11.6). This means they can be captured,
destroyed or forced to rebase.

This means two things. First, naval units don't have a garrison value, so only naval units don't count for getting influence. Than there is the second part. What's an "enemy controlled hex".

The answer to me seems pretty clear. In the rules section on control, one finds this text:

RAW:

Control of a hex changes when:
(...)
• an island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered
(see 13.7.1) or liberated (see 13.7.5);

Does this mean that control of a hex changes the moment a territory becomes neutral due to it's home country getting completely conquered? I believe this to be the case. And if so, than that particular hex suddenly becomes "enemy controlled". A neutral power doesn't want you to be present in their port, so you are forced to leave. Therefore: you have to rebase immediately.

[Orm]

The example in the rulebook cover this as well.

Example: Germany is conquered while Germany still controls a conquered Norway. Because Germany
controls no aligned home countries, Germany has been completely conquered. All German land and aircraft units
are removed from the game. Norway reverts to neutrality because no major power has any influence there. All
German naval units become controlled by Japan. You roll dice for any that are now in Allied controlled hexes. Any
that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will
be destroyed.

In the example Germany is conquered and Norway go neutral. There where German ships in Norway that becomes Japanese. And the Japanese ships are forced to rebase from neutral Norway.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

The example in the rulebook cover this as well.

Example: Germany is conquered while Germany still controls a conquered Norway. Because Germany
controls no aligned home countries, Germany has been completely conquered. All German land and aircraft units
are removed from the game. Norway reverts to neutrality because no major power has any influence there. All
German naval units become controlled by Japan. You roll dice for any that are now in Allied controlled hexes. Any
that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will
be destroyed.

In the example Germany is conquered and Norway go neutral. There where German ships in Norway that becomes Japanese. And the Japanese ships are forced to rebase from neutral Norway.

norway is neutral, not allied controlled hexes

the example mean, the naval units in conquered germany

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Orm

The example in the rulebook cover this as well.

Example: Germany is conquered while Germany still controls a conquered Norway. Because Germany
controls no aligned home countries, Germany has been completely conquered. All German land and aircraft units
are removed from the game. Norway reverts to neutrality because no major power has any influence there. All
German naval units become controlled by Japan. You roll dice for any that are now in Allied controlled hexes. Any
that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will
be destroyed.

In the example Germany is conquered and Norway go neutral. There where German ships in Norway that becomes Japanese. And the Japanese ships are forced to rebase from neutral Norway.

norway is neutral, not allied controlled hexes

Yes. You do not roll any dice for the ships in Norway. I find it interesting that you ignored the second part: "Any that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will be destroyed"

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Orm

The example in the rulebook cover this as well.

Example: Germany is conquered while Germany still controls a conquered Norway. Because Germany
controls no aligned home countries, Germany has been completely conquered. All German land and aircraft units
are removed from the game. Norway reverts to neutrality because no major power has any influence there. All
German naval units become controlled by Japan. You roll dice for any that are now in Allied controlled hexes. Any
that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will
be destroyed.

In the example Germany is conquered and Norway go neutral. There where German ships in Norway that becomes Japanese. And the Japanese ships are forced to rebase from neutral Norway.

norway is neutral, not allied controlled hexes

Yes. You do not roll any dice for the ships in Norway. I find it interesting that you ignored the second part: "Any that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will be destroyed"

yes survive the dice roll.

a naval unit you dont roll, cant survive. what does the units in neutral hexes survive ???

[Orm]

So you are saying that the example completely ignores to tell us what happens with the ships in Norway?!

I claim that it is pretty clear. If the ships are in Allied controlled hexes they are rolled for, and those that survive are rebased. And if they are not in Allied controlled hexes they are not rolled for and are then rebased.

[Orm]

I also want to point out that it does not say "any that survive the dice roll" but any that survive. The ships in Norway survive and hence they are part of any!

[michaelbaldur]

i know it does not make much sense. but we spend alot of time on this.

there is nothing, anywhere in the rules that say that naval units are rebased from neutral hexes.

and ADG have confirmed this.

[Orm]

Where have they confirmed this?

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Where have they confirmed this?

commination with the game programmer

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Orm

So you are saying that the example completely ignores to tell us what happens with the ships in Norway?!

I claim that it is pretty clear. If the ships are in Allied controlled hexes they are rolled for, and those that survive are rebased. And if they are not in Allied controlled hexes they are not rolled for and are then rebased.

I don't think the example even postulates there were any German ships in Norway. It's talking about ships in Allied controlled hexes and says they must rebase. It says Norway goes neutral, so it's impossible for ships there to be in Allied controlled hexes and have to rebase for that reason.

It would be a better example if it had stated there were German ships in Norway and said what happened to them, but that is typical of WiF rule book examples and results in falsely extrapolating them into discussions like this one.

MWiF may be programmed one way but the discussion spawned based on playing over the board and using RAW7. It can be one way or it can be the other way. When in doubt roll a die. It's not a game breaker.

When I get into situations like this when playing I say: "OK we've argued for an hour, let's roll a die. 1 to 6 it's my way, 7 to 10 it's yours." [;)]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Orm

So you are saying that the example completely ignores to tell us what happens with the ships in Norway?!

I claim that it is pretty clear. If the ships are in Allied controlled hexes they are rolled for, and those that survive are rebased. And if they are not in Allied controlled hexes they are not rolled for and are then rebased.

I don't think the example even postulates there were any German ships in Norway. It's talking about ships in Allied controlled hexes and says they must rebase. It says Norway goes neutral, so it's impossible for ships there to be in Allied controlled hexes and have to rebase for that reason.

It would be a better example if it had stated there were German ships in Norway and said what happened to them, but that is typical of WiF rule book examples and results in falsely extrapolating them into discussions like this one.

MWiF may be programmed one way but the discussion spawned based on playing RAW7. It can be one or it can be other. When in doubt roll a die. It's not a game breaker.

I would suggest that the example tells us what happens to both ships in Germany and in Norway. Otherwise it would be a very poor example.

Anyway. Are you saying that if there were German ships in Norway, they would become Japanese and then remain in Norway until Japan so desire to move them?

[paulderynck]

Yes on a roll of 1 to 6.

But as I stated if you read the example, it's impossible for it to be talking about ships in Norway.

[Orm]

It's not a game breaker.

It might not be a game breaker. But I sure would find it frustrating with CW ships in Crete that I can not do anything about without declaring war on Crete.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Orm

It's not a game breaker.

It might not be a game breaker. But I sure would find it frustrating with CW ships in Crete that I can not do anything about without declaring war on Crete.

If Crete is neutral (and assuming they don't have to rebase) then once they leave they can't come back and they can't do you much harm sitting in port. if Crete became CW controlled, then you should be able to do something.

[Centuur]

If hex control changes, that means that you don't control the hex anymore. Therefore, you have to rebase...

You cannot have warships belonging to a nation at war sitting in a neutral port. Those ships would be subject to the 24 hours rule (like the Graf Spee)...