Missing Italian BB's

[Michael T]

Italy appears to be missing a BB Group in the 1939 scenario, perhaps 1940 as well. I have not checked it.

As I understand it each BB group represents 2 BB plus some support ships.

Italy has the Andrea Doria group (including the Caio Duilio I guess).

But where is the Conte di Cavour and Giulio Cesare?

I thought the Regia Marina was a little underwhelming, this explains why. They are missing a whole BB group [:(]

[Twotribes]

Italy gets a Battleship group from reinforcements check the track

[Michael T]

The reinforcement group are the Littorio and Vittorio Veneto. Two entirely different ships.

[AlbertN]

I think the ratio is roughly 1 unit for 3 pieces. I believe at least.
But I agree Italian navy atm can hardly do anything anyhow, extremely hard to get in a surface combat where a carrier is around - which is okay - but when they do, they get the beating anyhow since Brits hardly need BBs to keep honest the German navy. Planes / CVs tend to do the trick there!

And on the CV I am not really understanding how their 'Air unit' works on the defensive. It soaks lots of damage from bombers, but it seems it's pratically infinite.
In an occasion I bombed the hell out of a UK fleet - and mostly butchered AIR (like 15ish damage). Then, supposedly, the mauled CVs (2 of them!) should have been reduced greatly.
Italian navy goes in. And Littorio instantly got sank by carrier units...

[AlvaroSousa]

Thanks. It was a naming error. I put the right BB group in the 1939 map.

Italy started with 2 BBs in 1939 with another 2 coming by the time they went to war. So their OOB is correct. The BB group on the map just had the wrong name.

[AlbertN]

If 1 BB counter is 2 BBs then yes there is 1 missing.

[Michael T]

The Italian Navy is under strength. Time to get out some reference material Alvaro.

[AlvaroSousa]

I have references several.

[tyronec]

Is in not more like 1 counter for 3 BBs if you look at the French or UK navies ?

[AlvaroSousa]

Sometimes you have to adjust for ships that some books consider BC or BB and others consider monitors or they are older ships. Like UK's Iron Duke or the German's Shcleg-Hostbargybarg I don't know how to spell it and I am too lazy to look it up for a post which were fairly obsolete and short range.

[Michael T]

I still think the Italian's are under strength. Especially looking at the French Fleet. WarPlan would have to be the first game I have seen where the initial French Navy is so much more powerful than the Italian's.

[AlbertN]

Not just Italian fleet.
The more I am playing the game the more to me seems Axis is understrength. And not by a slim shot.
Luftwaffe gets trashed. France has no problem holding up to late July or August, without BEF!
UK can easily hold Middle East and UK without any form of problem or trouble.

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Not just Italian fleet.
The more I am playing the game the more to me seems Axis is understrength. And not by a slim shot.
Luftwaffe gets trashed. France has no problem holding up to late July or August, without BEF!
UK can easily hold Middle East and UK without any form of problem or trouble.

I'm starting to feel this too, but haven't played quite enough to have all the data. France does feel a bit too strong. This is a tricky thing, because on paper France was very formidable. But in reality the way they managed the campaign vs Germany became the ultimate factor for almost a route. Not so much the forces involved. Although the Luftwaffe was something France (and Britain) had no answer for during Case Yellow.

[Michael T]

It seems to me the Royal Navy is just not stressed like it was in the real war after France fell. I think two primary reasons.
1. The Italian BB's are not fully represented. They are missing half their starting BB's.
2. There seems to be no qualitative difference between the old and slow British WWI BB's and the modern and fast Axis BB's/BC's.

[AlbertN]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Not just Italian fleet.
The more I am playing the game the more to me seems Axis is understrength. And not by a slim shot.
Luftwaffe gets trashed. France has no problem holding up to late July or August, without BEF!
UK can easily hold Middle East and UK without any form of problem or trouble.

I'm starting to feel this too, but haven't played quite enough to have all the data. France does feel a bit too strong. This is a tricky thing, because on paper France was very formidable. But in reality the way they managed the campaign vs Germany became the ultimate factor for almost a route. Not so much the forces involved. Although the Luftwaffe was something France (and Britain) had no answer for during Case Yellow.

Problem there is that players know of that. They'll sit in France, dug in in optimized positions with no retreat orders.
In latest patch Germans arrive in '40 for France with like 2 Panzers, maybe 3. (Yes, unless you don't want to repair the Luftwaffe and lose the planes, OR not use your planes and withdraw them! Make your choice).
It turned into a WW1 massive slog through entrenched French troops.
Only hope is a fuck up of the Allied player.

And ultimately any French loss is 'free' as sooner or later they'll get Vichy'ed. So France can toss all their planes first, have Luftwaffe get exhausted and then the brits arrive.

Each turn Allies gain 6 times X efficiency and repairs on their fighters, Luftwaffe 4 times. (Allies 7 times in any turn the Dutch or Belgian airforce can fly too!). Heck, even Poland now trashes with their fighters 4-5 points to the Luftwaffe whereas Polish AF was destroyed on the ground in the first day of the German offensive.

The first turn of air battle things seems decent for the German. Your planes were ready, and you got more experience! At the third turn the cards are already entirely flipped. You can barely intercept or escort. And the Allies keep strafing your airfields or bomb troops. (But by what I saw, they keep usually on the airfields. More costy losses).

[Michael T]

The French Navy is also over strength. The Paris BB unit (which I assume includes the Courbet) were both training ships and not operational units. Yet they are in the game as fully functional BB groups. Just as good as any other BB.

They also have a BB group called the Clemenceau (which I assume includes the Gascogne). Both these ships were never completed.

The French Navy at the start of WWII only had the 2 Dunkerque class BC's and the 3 Provence BB's operational. So two BB groups at most in 1939. Yet they have four in WarPlan
So the French Navy has double capital ships and the Italian's have half there Capital ships. Very odd.

I haven't even looked at the Cruisers yet.

[Meteor2]

Accordingly to "Weyers Taschenbuch der Kriegsflotten 1936", the ships ready for duty (or under construction) were as follows:


Italy / France

BB 4 (+2) / 6 (+3)
CA 10 / 10
CL 17 (+2) / 6 (+5)
DD 40 / 45 (+3)
SS 32 / 54
SSc 43 / 55 (coastal vessels)

Of cource, there are additional ships, not classified in the classes above and individual performance is not rated.


In WP we have the following strength points:

Italy / France
BB 6 / 24
CA 15 / 10
CL/ 15 / 15
DD
SS 20 / 5

So, maybe Michael T has a point.
- Italy should be have more BB groups,
- Italy should have less SS points (about equal to France at least).
- The amount of CA point should be equal.

[ncc1701e]

This is hard to translate in a game but French Navy had some good units that were neutralized after their defeat in 1940. For example, the French CV carrier Béarn never did anything after 1940.

[MVokt]

Italy had a formidable navy at the start of WW2. This should be reflected in the game.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: MVokt

Italy had a formidable navy at the start of WW2. This should be reflected in the game.

True, but Italy was not having enough oil to move it. This should be reflected in the game. [8D]