HQ providing mor supply than expected

[Sugar]

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First HQ receives 4 supply and provides 6 as expected.

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Second HQ receives 3 supply and provides also 6 as expected.

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Third HQ is located 2 movement points away from the next source and obviously target of the linking boost. From my calculation it should receive 4 supply from the next HQ 2 hexes away and should therefore provide 6 itself, but as you can see it receives 5 and provides 8. Did I miss anything? And considering 3 HQs are available in this scenario, how does the game decide which of the HQs is the target of the boost?

[Hubert Cater]

Hi Sugar,

I had to revisit my notes but this looks correct. Rommel is being boosted by Gariboldi as seen by the yellow hex outline which then applies the following conditions to bring Rommel a boost up to 5.

- HQs (boosting recap) can now only be linked if the first HQ has a supply value >= 3.
- the HQ to be linked must have a supply value < 5 and is now automatically boosted to a supply value of 5 which caps its distribution supply at 8.
- this will improve distribution supply for boosted HQs that were at 3 or 4 supply (from 6 to 8), and more importantly, will allow them to 'operate' and 'upgrade' now that they are at 5 supply.

For the decision on which will boost and which will link, lower rated HQs are always looked for to boost higher rated HQs whenever applicable.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

[Sugar]

Many thx!

Now, considering the evolution of the supply rules this is a way to boost up the supply again, after previously nerfing it, iIrc.

Wouldn`t it be best to return to the rules of V 1.5? Not only are they far more understandable imho, this V. was also considered as very well balanced from the entire community.

[Hubert Cater]

Hi Sugar,

My pleasure and to be honest it has been a while since the earlier iteration of the boosting mechanism. I believe the issue was it allowed players to boost an HQ to supply 10 which from what I remember was too strong of a supply boost in some areas/parts of the game.

The idea was to reduce it from a max of 10 to 8 which is still consistent with what we have above, but I think that we just refined the linking rules for game mechanic consistency regarding how units upgrade and reinforce and what their minimum supply requirements are for that etc.


For example, this is what we introduced in v1.04:

- HQ distribution supply has been changed to the following:
- HQ supply < 3 will have a distribution supply value of 5.
- HQ supply >= 3 and <= 5 will have a distribution supply value of 8.
- HQ supply > 5 will have a distribution supply value of 10.

- HQs can now only be linked if the first HQ has a supply value >= 5, raised from a previous threshold of >= 3.
- the HQ to be linked must have a supply value < 3 and is now automatically boosted to a supply value of 5 which caps its distribution supply at 8. Previously linked HQs could have a maximum distribution supply level of 10.



This is what we have now:

- HQ units, after amphibiously unloading, start at 10 supply and maintain supply for up to 5 turns with a drop of 2 supply points per turn. This is similar to Special Forces, and allows the HQ to act as a Mulberry for an initial landing until further supply sources are achieved.

- HQ distribution supply has been changed to the following:
- HQ supply = 0 will have a distribution supply value of 3 (previously it was 5).
- HQ supply 1 or 2 will have a distribution supply value of 5.
- HQ supply 3 or 4 will have a distribution supply value of 6 (previously it was 8).
- HQ supply 5 will have a distribution supply value of 8.
- HQ supply > 5 will have a distribution supply value of 10.

- HQs (boosting recap) can now only be linked if the first HQ has a supply value >= 3.
- the HQ to be linked must have a supply value < 5 and is now automatically boosted to a supply value of 5 which caps its distribution supply at 8.
- this will improve distribution supply for boosted HQs that were at 3 or 4 supply (from 6 to 8), and more importantly, will allow them to 'operate' and 'upgrade' now that they are at 5 supply.


What we had exactly before any of these changes I don't really remember but as you can see from the latest it helps to take into account HQs trapped in pockets as well as recently landed HQs via an amphibious assault etc., so I would be hesitant to change anything back at this point. One thing we did change back was that the previous threshold of the first HQ just needs to be >= 3 as you can see above.

Hubert

[Sugar]

Sounds reasonable not to change into the dark ages hehe, but the main difference between now and then is the necessity to link HQs, which of course implies to have enough of them, and the HQs as original source do provide significantly less supply than previously if not at a minimum of 5 supply.

That`s not an issue in North Africa so much, but in Russia, where you have to cover wide areas, and there aren`t enough HQs available to work in teams, not to speak of the costs. It`s very frustrating to wait 4 turns until the supply has reached sufficient lvls, it slows the pace down artificially and has nothing to do with Panzer Raids, but plays more like Cabinet Wars.

I welcome the changes regarding the handling of Paras, Special Forces and HQs as a mulberry.

IIrc the referenced rules were: 3-5 supply will provide 8, more than 5 10, and linked HQs were boosted to 8 at max, if placed where the original HQs provides 5+ at least. This left enough space for p.e. use of strat. bombers to wreck supply in shallow areas, but wasn`t completely over the top like shore bombarding every african town, leaving the Axis troops without any supply.

The difference to now would be that the original HQ would provide 8 instead of 6 supply if 3 supply are available, the rules would be far easier to understand, and even Rookies without any knowledge of supply rules would be happy not to find themself in situations where their troops underperform for no obvious reason.

[armuss]

I agree Sugar.
Once the player focused more on tactical maneuvers.
Currently it is always asking for supplies...

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

That`s not an issue in North Africa so much, but in Russia, where you have to cover wide areas, and there aren`t enough HQs available to work in teams, not to speak of the costs. It`s very frustrating to wait 4 turns until the supply has reached sufficient lvls, it slows the pace down artificially and has nothing to do with Panzer Raids, but plays more like Cabinet Wars.

Is this for the Axis during the initial invasion of the USSR?

If so I wonder if reducing the effect of scorched earth slightly would make things better?

[Hubert Cater]

If I remember correctly the primary concern (in the older versions of the game) was that boosted HQs, at the old 10 supply they could max out at, were too powerful and supply issues in the USSR for the Axis essentially became non existent. There was no need for the Axis to have to wait for supply to catch up with rapid advances, which in turn pushed the Allies back with little chance for any reprieve. It was argued it felt like an unrealistic Axis steamroller etc.

Looking at the old, old rules:

- HQ at zero supply had a distribution of 5
- HQ > 0 and <= 5 had a distribution of 8
- HQ > 5 had a distribution of 10

Boosted HQs received whatever supply they could receive from the linked HQ and then the above old supply rules applied, e.g. if the boosted HQ was put at a supply value > 5 it would then have supply of 10 etc.

Thus the change to v1.04 even if the old old rules were simple and clear enough, which they were, it was to address this Axis steamroller concern which at the time felt fair enough.

[Hubert Cater]

The new, new rules were an attempt to address low supply HQs and cut off pockets. Again the arguments here were that HQs were too powerful in cutoff situations etc. Thus these specific changes:

- HQ supply = 0 will have a distribution supply value of 3 (previously it was 5).
- HQ supply 1 or 2 will have a distribution supply value of 5.
- HQ supply 3 or 4 will have a distribution supply value of 6 (previously it was 8).

To make that work, we then introduced the mulberry HQ rule to address situations like D-Day and so on.

[Hubert Cater]

Granted it does add complexity, but at the moment it feels like it now handles all in game concerns and situations much better and quite well overall.

If it is really an issue now with Axis advances in the USSR, we'd have to tread carefully in my opinion as we don't want to go back to the older issues, and we'd need to get a clearer picture and feedback from players on just how the balance currently is in the war in the east portion of the game.

For example, if it is tougher for the Axis but the game flow feels about right and the balance is there then we'd likely be hesitant to make any further changes. But if it is imbalanced then we are of course open to suggestions and Bill's idea might be useful, but again, not to the point where it shifts the balance again too far in favour of the Axis and so on.

[Hubert Cater]

Just wanted to add, to not get me wrong here as I can appreciate the concerns, it's just that we put a lot of thought and effort into improving the supply situations to address the major concerns, and at this point it just doesn't feel like we could easily go back to something from before all of that without a very compelling set of reasons etc.

[Sugar]

If so I wonder if reducing the effect of scorched earth slightly would make things better?

Didn`t you do that already? I remember this to be one point as reaction to the criticism after the changes in V 1.6. Actually I finished playing the 41 campaign just now (V 1.17.02), and there were several occasions when the newly occupied town or city had just 1 supply left after heavy fighting and occupying. Against the AI I can simply adjust the build limts, but of course not in PbeM.

I agree the Axis supply shouldn`t be the best possible in Russia and therefore the distribution capped to 8 at max when linking, but that`s not a technical issue, isn`t it?

The point in steamroling is the weakness of the Russians, not the strength of the Germans imho. I often and consistantly criticized the decision to add a 3. lvl of Inf. solely to Russia, they should be able to do some damage at all at lvl.2, which sadly isn`t the case. And the missing effect on cut off and encircled troops is at least partly reasoned on the missing speed of units and the lack of tanks, making encirclements virtually impossible.

In the predecessor Breakthrough SoE Germany could field 10 tanks and 6 bombers, now it`s the other way around. All units had +1 action point (which couldn`t be split like now to be fair), and the tiles promoted the movements in eastern-western or western-eastern direction (additionally on a far smaller map), allowing really swift and surprising moves. And all it required to provide 8 points of supply was 1 in any town...

I understand and really appreciate your approach to your game. I can live with the recent changes, they are undoubtly an improvement, but 1 additional HQ available in the force pool would be nice to be able to use the new feature.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

If so I wonder if reducing the effect of scorched earth slightly would make things better?

Didn`t you do that already?

You are right, without checking the patch notes even I sometimes forget what we did, when, and of course, for which game seeing as we have three modern games! [:)]

I've made a note of your other points to think about.

[Elessar2]

ORIGINAL: Sugar

And the missing effect on cut off and encircled troops is at least partly reasoned on the missing speed of units and the lack of tanks, making encirclements virtually impossible.

I've been experimenting with extra movement points for tanks & mech, and it has worked well-
in one game I had 23 Russians completely surrounded. [Yes, the AI is the AI there, but that gives you an idea] Right now I have it as 8 move on the Euro map & 6 on World (+ Mobility). I've also yes increased the HQ build limits (while making them a bit cheaper, mainly so they can benefit from 2 levels of inf tech as well as A-A and Mobility).

[AshFall]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

This is what we have now:

- HQ units, after amphibiously unloading, start at 10 supply and maintain supply for up to 5 turns with a drop of 2 supply points per turn. This is similar to Special Forces, and allows the HQ to act as a Mulberry for an initial landing until further supply sources are achieved.

- HQ distribution supply has been changed to the following:
- HQ supply = 0 will have a distribution supply value of 3 (previously it was 5).
- HQ supply 1 or 2 will have a distribution supply value of 5.
- HQ supply 3 or 4 will have a distribution supply value of 6 (previously it was 8).
- HQ supply 5 will have a distribution supply value of 8.
- HQ supply > 5 will have a distribution supply value of 10.

- HQs (boosting recap) can now only be linked if the first HQ has a supply value >= 3.
- the HQ to be linked must have a supply value < 5 and is now automatically boosted to a supply value of 5 which caps its distribution supply at 8.
- this will improve distribution supply for boosted HQs that were at 3 or 4 supply (from 6 to 8), and more importantly, will allow them to 'operate' and 'upgrade' now that they are at 5 supply.

I was looking at this thread trying to figure out my other supply question, and did some tests with HQs to get a grip on the new system.

Is it correct that the "Distributing HQ" does not actually need to be in 3+ supply from a source, but only distribute 3+ supply (i.e. the HQ can actually be in 1 supply from a source and distribute 5 as in this screenshot)?

Update, more testing: Only, that doesnt make sense, since in that case the HQs in the second picture (small window) would also give such supply. They both distribute 3 (according to the numbers Hubert gave above) but do not boost eachother.

Is it"HQs can only be linked if the first HQ in the chain has a supply above 0"? Cant make much sense of the mechanics as written and numbers given these tests.

Also an important distinction, the supply from the first HQ in the chain must be able to reach the receiving HQ (1 point is enough) it's not automatic within the HQs command range.

Apologies for the "must click" attachment, the forum doesnt allow embedding privileges yet .

[Sugar]

I've made a note of your other points to think about.

Thx a lot!

[Hubert Cater]

Hi AshFall,

To clarify, each HQ distributes supply, there is no 'distribution HQ'.

The supply distribution value, e.g. how much supply an HQ will provide to units around it depends on the current supply value an HQ has received.

For example, if an HQ is on a city that provides 8 supply, the HQ will have a supply of 8, and then a distribution supply value of 10.

If an HQ is currently with a supply value of 0, then it will distribute 3 supply to the units around it.

This is what these notes reflect below:

HQ distribution supply has been changed to the following:
- HQ supply = 0 will have a distribution supply value of 3 (previously it was 5).
- HQ supply 1 or 2 will have a distribution supply value of 5.
- HQ supply 3 or 4 will have a distribution supply value of 6 (previously it was 8).
- HQ supply 5 will have a distribution supply value of 8.
- HQ supply > 5 will have a distribution supply value of 10.


For HQs to be linked, e.g. where one HQ boosts another HQ, the first HQ needs a supply value >= 3.

Does this clarify your questions?
Hubert

[AshFall]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi AshFall,

To clarify, each HQ distributes supply, there is no 'distribution HQ'.

The supply distribution value, e.g. how much supply an HQ will provide to units around it depends on the current supply value an HQ has received.

For example, if an HQ is on a city that provides 8 supply, the HQ will have a supply of 8, and then a distribution supply value of 10.

If an HQ is currently with a supply value of 0, then it will distribute 3 supply to the units around it.

This is what these notes reflect below:

HQ distribution supply has been changed to the following:
- HQ supply = 0 will have a distribution supply value of 3 (previously it was 5).
- HQ supply 1 or 2 will have a distribution supply value of 5.
- HQ supply 3 or 4 will have a distribution supply value of 6 (previously it was 8).
- HQ supply 5 will have a distribution supply value of 8.
- HQ supply > 5 will have a distribution supply value of 10.


For HQs to be linked, e.g. where one HQ boosts another HQ, the first HQ needs a supply value >= 3.

Does this clarify your questions?
Hubert

Not quite. Looking at my attached picture in my first post, the large picture, Popov (the southern HQ) has only 1 supply (boosted to 5 as per the values you gave). Somehow though he gives the northern HQ a distribution of 8, despite the northern HQ being in 0 base supply.

According to the numbers you gave that should not be possible, as Popov is <3 supply.

In the second picture Popov has moved one hex north, and both HQs are in 0 supply.

[Hubert Cater]

If you left click on the HQ northeast of Popov, does Popov then get highlighted with a thin lined yellow hex outline?

If he does then Popov is the source HQ for a boost to the northeast HQ. If he does not have the yellow outline then Popov is not boosting the northeast HQ.

This would then mean that the northeast HQ is at supply 5 (with 8 distribution) from another supply source.

[armuss]

New supply rules increased realism, but... reduced the fun of playing.
I'm not talking about games PBEM.