China problem

[BillRunacre]

Very interesting discussion all round, and it shows that we need to be very careful with any changes.

One thing I have been wondering is whether it would be beneficial to move one of the starting Chinese HQs from the Sian area to the south, so that Changsha's defenders have a HQ commanding them right from the start.

I'm not sure offhand if we should change the name of the HQ too in that case.

Would this help keep things more historical without upsetting balance?

[Marcinos1985]

One thing I have been wondering is whether it would be beneficial to move one of the starting Chinese HQs from the Sian area to the south, so that Changsha's defenders have a HQ commanding them right from the start.

I think it would be a great start and make Chinese life a bit easier from the get go. And all these shift-clicking through mountains would not be needed anymore. And if I remember correctly, Xue was Changsha commander, so he would be able to 'do his job' form the start.

[Calaf]

Yes yes yes.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre


One thing I have been wondering is whether it would be beneficial to move one of the starting Chinese HQs from the Sian area to the south, so that Changsha's defenders have a HQ commanding them right from the start.

Yes. With that change, my initial fighter could be used for something else other than as a baggage handler and trail spotter for the HQ staff that I have to move over mountain ranges to get south. [:D]

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Very interesting discussion all round, and it shows that we need to be very careful with any changes.

One thing I have been wondering is whether it would be beneficial to move one of the starting Chinese HQs from the Sian area to the south, so that Changsha's defenders have a HQ commanding them right from the start.

I'm not sure offhand if we should change the name of the HQ too in that case.

Would this help keep things more historical without upsetting balance?

Agreed. The whole air unit dance to move HQ trick needs to go and this is a simple and historical fix to help China.

[Mithrilotter]

I like the idea of moving a Chinese HQ to the South.I have to do it in all of my games.

[Cpuncher]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

I'm not sure offhand if we should change the name of the HQ too in that case.

Would this help keep things more historical without upsetting balance?

I've always wondered why Xue was not commanding the Changsha front as he was historically responsible for all 4 battles of Changsha, the first one began in mid September 1939. A quick online research showed he was appointed deputy commander of the Ninth Front on Nov 28, 1938. The Ninth Front was headquartered in Nanchang initially then moved to Chenzhou (a place south of Hengyang). Xue commanded until the end of the war.

I see in both the 42 and 43 campaign he is already stationed to the Changsha front, except in the 39 one where he is west of Wuhan. To the Dev's credit he indeed was involved in the battle of Wuhan. But that battle ended in late Oct 1938. The Ninth Front involves anything south of Wuhan to somewhere north of Canton.

Since the China theatre has very limited impact on the outcome of the whole war anyway, I'm all for making it more historical. The 1st battle of Changsha was the first major objective that Japan tried hard and failed, and they had to try 3 more times, to only take it in 1944 during Operation Ichi-Go.

There is a danger of making China too strong and able to push the Japs back. So I think to start Xue near Changsha (but 1 of the 2 HQs near Xian needs to be moved to west of Wuhan, and may require a name change), make the 2-star Jap army only 1-star (I really think the most elite Axis units cause a bit too unrealistic battle outcomes), and perhaps give a star to 1 or 2 Changsha defenders , may allow Changsha to be held 2 or more turns longer. These might just give China enough room to hold out a lot longer for the whole war.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher


There is a danger of making China too strong and able to push the Japs back. So I think to start Xue near Changsha (but 1 of the 2 HQs near Xian needs to be moved to west of Wuhan, and may require a name change), make the 2-star Jap army only 1-star (I really think the most elite Axis units cause a bit too unrealistic battle outcomes), and perhaps give a star to 1 or 2 Changsha defenders , may allow Changsha to be held 2 or more turns longer. These might just give China enough room to hold out a lot longer for the whole war.

This idea maybe really helpful....I did quite a few practice runs via a hotseat while doing a match with an opponent who was really aggressive in China for the first 2 years and had the sense that the Japanese were a little to robust and/or the Chinese weren't.

In this match (which is still ongoing), I had to get aggressive with the Chinese also, but not immoderately so, and had him pushed back into Canton and Pokhai...plus some shoving up north just south of Peking.
I was under unrelenting air bombardment by both his land and sea airpower of course..but his 2 pip Infantry Armies finally ground my valiant Chinese up...with the resulting pell-mell retreat into the interior.

So, while having an HQ in the south for China would be great... the addition of your proposal listed above seems to feel right also.

[Cpuncher]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

I'm not sure offhand if we should change the name of the HQ too in that case.

Here is a map of different Chinese Fronts(Theaters/Military Regions) and their commanders (sir names first here) in a relevant period. Different Chinese fronts were established/removed/adjusted throughout the war, and this map was drawn up in Nov 1938, after the loss of Wuhan, with the exception of the 6th, which was re-established in Oct 1939 (was removed in Feb 1938). The 9th was initially established for the defense of Wuhan in June 1938, with Chen Cheng as commander. After Wuhan it was adjusted to what's shown in this map. Chen Cheng was commander in name only, with deputy commander Xue Yue to be actually in charge (This may be the reason why Xue is mistakenly placed west of Wuhan in the 1939 campaign).

So from north to south, for the 4 Chinese HQs in the 1939 campaign, should be Zhu (Shaoliang, 8th) west of Paotow, Wei (Lihuang, 1st) for Chengchow, Chen (Cheng, 6th) west of Wuhan (though 6th was officially re-established in Oct 1939 but close enough), and Xue (Yue, 9th) at Changsha.

Just some information. Hope it helps.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher


There is a danger of making China too strong and able to push the Japs back. So I think to start Xue near Changsha (but 1 of the 2 HQs near Xian needs to be moved to west of Wuhan, and may require a name change), make the 2-star Jap army only 1-star (I really think the most elite Axis units cause a bit too unrealistic battle outcomes), and perhaps give a star to 1 or 2 Changsha defenders , may allow Changsha to be held 2 or more turns longer. These might just give China enough room to hold out a lot longer for the whole war.

This idea maybe really helpful....I did quite a few practice runs via a hotseat while doing a match with an opponent who was really aggressive in China for the first 2 years and had the sense that the Japanese were a little to robust and/or the Chinese weren't.

In this match (which is still ongoing), I had to get aggressive with the Chinese also, but not immoderately so, and had him pushed back into Canton and Pokhai...plus some shoving up north just south of Peking.
I was under unrelenting air bombardment by both his land and sea airpower of course..but his 2 pip Infantry Armies finally ground my valiant Chinese up...with the resulting pell-mell retreat into the interior.

So, while having an HQ in the south for China would be great... the addition of your proposal listed above seems to feel right also.

You guys have to remember that Japan has been fighting in China since 1936. They have a very veteran unit there for a reason...

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

You guys have to remember that Japan has been fighting in China since 1936. They have a very veteran unit there for a reason...

Hmmmm....so were the Chinese. [:)]