Game Balance

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

People disband planes to buy land units: tanks or armies. Why? Because obviously, there is a lack of land units.

There is always a lack of ground units. Even if the Russians received the extra 5 Armies you state they should have they will still want more (at least I would). So Since air units, especially for the Russian, are not very effective, the smart players will still disband them to build more ground units. But this will hopefully all change with the next patch.

Retaking this list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_armies

There are 12 Infantry armies that were formed in 1939. On the game map at the beginning of Europe 1939, we have only 2 Infantry armies. We need for Russia more armies. Bad ok, but more.

Germans must have the feeling of quantity. Three solutions:
1. put more Infantry armies on the map in Europe 1939 scenario
2. put more reserve Infantry armies in the Deployment queue in Europe 1939 scenario
3. a combination of both

Again, my preference would be to have higher quality (41 tech) Russian Units.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

All right, just checking my next turn before playing it. I am short of at least 7 Infantry Armies to hold a line.

Third airborne attacks in two turns (one Italian, two Germans). Russia has no more Air Superiority group able to perform full support. There are too much damaged and I have no PP to repair them.

Of course, I am full speed on producing Infantry Army but now with holes in my line, Panzers are destroying armies faster than I am creating them. This is easy for them, they just encircle and destroy them one by one.

Yes, I am short of Infantry Armies. No reserves. The snowball effect is starting.

GAME OVER

I am now convinced that if you are putting more reserve Infantry Armies, let's say between 5 and 10, this situation won't happen. It will be a desperate fight for 1942 but a fight to hold and to win in 1943.

This, IMHO, is the real problem. The Axis can in 1942 destroy Russian Units faster than the Russian player can replace them. Not sure what the solution is for this. But I do know that historically:

1. The Axis didn't fully recover from the effects of the 41/42 Winter until mid to late June 42. In the game they are usually good to go by late April or early May. Those 6 weeks (3 turns) can make a big difference.
2. After the initial battles the Russians didn't try and hold the line until they got to the Volga. They just retreated every turn so that the Axis couldn't come to grips with them.

[generalfdog]

I agree guys in the poll that started this tread almost everyone said axis to strong and I would bet most of them meant Russia is to weak, but as far as I can tell Russia is not actually being strengthened actually Germany is with it sounds like better air and more manpower sounds like Germany is being slowed but personally I don't agree with that either to me 41 is not the Issue its already hard enough for Germany to get to historical 41 achievements. For me I'm less worried about exact historical numbers and more worried about "feel" for me summer and fall 41 feels right, to me winter and 42 doesn't. To me slowing down rail repair is wrong because Germany needs to move fast and once Russia is on the offensive so do they. I think adding more winter bonuses for Russia or handicaps for Germany could make winters more devastating for Germany without throwing them off to much for summer offensive ability, and then starting once reserves run out Russia is just low on production, I think they should get big production bonuses for holding, their key cities of Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, and a bigger one if they hold all 3, the good thing about something like that is it would help stop a kinda phony German strategy of just going on the defense after 41 without actually accomplishing much and it would make up for the German production increase of the last patch. Twice Russia has been hammered by these patches once with the experience decrease and again with German production increase. Everyone voted Russia needs a bump can we please have it.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

This assumes that the Russians had an Army in every hex of the line. I don't think this was the case by this time in the Caucuses.

In this game, if you don't have a line, the armored / mechanized corps are going through. And since your infantry sucks, you can't counterattack. Finally, you are encircled and destroyed.

This is the game and how it plays. So this is far better to have infantry everywhere to form a line. Infantry 1939 or Infantry 1941, this won't change anything to your encirclement and your annihilation.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

This, IMHO, is the real problem. The Axis can in 1942 destroy Russian Units faster than the Russian player can replace them. Not sure what the solution is for this. But I do know that historically:

1. The Axis didn't fully recover from the effects of the 41/42 Winter until mid to late June 42. In the game they are usually good to go by late April or early May. Those 6 weeks (3 turns) can make a big difference.

--> Maybe the rail repair rate will slow them down. Maybe not. We will see.

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

2. After the initial battles the Russians didn't try and hold the line until they got to the Volga. They just retreated every turn so that the Axis couldn't come to grips with them.

--> I did not try to hold. I am just retreating each turn since end of April 1942. And also, new Garrison mode, to improve defense, is not to be used by Russian at any costs, lessons learned. This is just helping the Germans with their encirclement.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: generalfdog

I think adding more winter bonuses for Russia or handicaps for Germany could make winters more devastating for Germany without throwing them off to much for summer offensive ability.

Yes, blizzard reduces efficiency by 20%, that's not a big deal imo. I don't remember ever having been concerned about the blizzard playing the Germans.

ORIGINAL: generalfdog

Everyone voted Russia needs a bump can we please have it.

+10000 - I would love to hear that the Russians are too strong in the next patch.

[Nirosi]

Winter is not so bad I agree, but blizzard affects by -20 every turn if I understand correctly (so -20 + whatever you would get for recovery). I believe many Soviets do not attack enough in Winter. Of coure, by itself it was not enough to compensate the imbalance, so the new changes will make a much bigger difference.

Still many Soviets do not realize that even 1vs1 attacks with low number of steps is not that bad. I have often seen results with the Soviet (1 stack vs 1 stack) such as 0-1 and even 0-0. Not only this helps National XP but also keeps German at low readiness. I used this technique (massive small attacks) only once (to try it since Alvaro hinted at it) against either Sveint or Stjeand (not 100% sure) and IIRC he did mention that his troops were not as ready as he expected them to be in Spring, while the Soviets were close to normal % since they recover normally.

As I said , by itself it was not enough, but I think, now with the new changes, that it is also the Soviet player role to make the winter be hard for the Germans.

[michaelCLARADY]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

The Russians have a lot of reserve units.

According to this list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_armies

Around 40 armies were formed from June 1941 to December 1941.

There are 25 Reserve Unit i.e. 25 armies in the Deployment queue at the start of Europe 1939 scenario........................

How many of those armies were composed of utterly untrained men grabbed off a city street or rural farm and given one rifle for every two men?

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

Winter is not so bad I agree, but blizzard affects by -20 every turn if I understand correctly (so -20 + whatever you would get for recovery).

This is not -20 every turn. This is just a reduction of the recovery by 20%.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: michaelCLARADY

How many of those armies were composed of utterly untrained men grabbed off a city street or rural farm and given one rifle for every two men?

I don't know, all of them perhaps. Is it not why they are all coming with Assault 1939 in this game?
At the end, these guys are finishing in Berlin according to my books.

[Nirosi]

This is not -20 every turn. This is just a reduction of the recovery by 20%

If if is a reduction of recovery, would than not then apply every turn?

I was under the impression that the -20 was added to the recovery formula that applies every tunr. So you would, for example, get +2% recovery instead of +22%, or -5% instead of +15%?

[generalfdog]

My big concern with using the rail repair rate to balance things is that I'm not finding that Germany needs slowed in 41 just winter 41-42 and summer 42, seems to me rail repair will slow them at wrong time, maybe air power improvement will make up for that but then we are right back where we started. Russia is in trouble once they run out of reserves

[ncc1701e]

You need to slow down Germans in summer 1941 also. Early Barbarossa April 1941 is devastating. Usually this is ending with Leningrad taken, Moscow taken.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

This is not -20 every turn. This is just a reduction of the recovery by 20%

If if is a reduction of recovery, would than not then apply every turn?

I was under the impression that the -20 was added to the recovery formula that applies every tunr. So you would, for example, get +2% recovery instead of +22%, or -5% instead of +15%?

I don't think so. Instead of getting an effectiveness recovery of 20%, you are getting 16%.

[Nirosi]

I don't think so. Instead of getting an effectiveness recovery of 20%, you are getting 16%.

Hum... that would be what -20% would normally mean, but most of the time rules and people say -20% instead of -20 points pf percentage (hence I assumed -20 point of percentage).

I'll try to test it. Most of the time units in ok shape at 70% or so recover around 10% or so. This would mean then... 9% instead in winter. I have a hard time believing it would be so little! Seems to me why bother even coding it for so little...

I'll try to test it.

[Nirosi]

I tested it. It is most probably 10 points of percentage (so 5% instead of 15% in winter). The other way around (13.5 instead of 15) would have meant nothing honestly.

The first winter turn in the 1942 scenario, all German units in Winter went from 100% to 93% and then for a second winter turn the same units went down to 85%. So they lost 7% and then 8%. This can only mean they gained 3% and then 2% respectively (quite normal at this level), minus the 10 for winter.

When Blizzard struck I monitored a unit that was down to 76% (down from 100% over 4-5 turns just due to weather, so another proof), blizzard by itself brought it to 69%. So if that unit would have normally gained 13% (which can makes sense in good supply at 76% readiness), the results work perfectly.

[ncc1701e]

Thanks for your testing. So, from your point of view, is the impact of blizzard enough?

[Nirosi]

So, from your point of view, is the impact of blizzard enough?

If the units do not get attacked, no, not enough. I am not sure if I have the patience to test it with attacks as it will require many attacks and tests to compare. But maybe that the -20% plus been victim of enough attacks during the Winter might be enough (but might "cost" too much for the Soviet to be feasible other than small sectors)? Just like that instinctively, without testing it, I would guess that attacking armors at strategic places at 1vs1 might be worth it during winter. It could make the difference about them been ready earlier or not.

But then again, the difference might just be 2 extra turns of recovery only, so they might be ready in April instead of March (because they will usually be high supply hexes recovering faster anyway).

Maybe then the -20% for Blizzard could be increased by 5% (same with the -10% for Winter)? Maybe that Heavy Rain should also have a supply penalty like that, of 5% let's say? The small extra 5% in 3 different weathers will add-up I think.

[ncc1701e]

Well, I am guessing but, with the reduction of the rail repair rate, the Germans may have lower effectiveness when winter comes. So perhaps, the Russian will be more successful in their winter attacks; gaining more experience than previously. Thanks to this, on-map Russian armies will increase experience a little bit faster by replacing their step losses.

And Germans will have to recover a little bit longer before triggering Case Blue. With the new Oka river line, this will also help Russian to slow them down.

Can't wait the next patch. [:)]

[Nirosi]

Can't wait the next patch.

This games keeps continuously improving [:)]