Research multitasking

[Spidey]

ORIGINAL: StormingKiwi

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In DW2, you're completely welcome to research 1 project or more projects concurrently. It's up to you as the player what you'd like to do.

What I'm pointing out is that this is an optional mechanic which allows you to have concurrent projects or not.

I'm not debating whether, in a vacuum, focusing on a single tech and getting it sooner is "optimal" or not. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying that as a practical matter, either is a reasonable choice in the game and there are times you may want to research more than one tech at a time because of other factors. If some would prefer to be required to research concurrent techs, the option to never focus on just one is there for you. If you prefer to focus on just one, go for it, nothing will stop you. I don't understand the negativity when in effect DW2 adds the choice without taking anything away.

Regards,

- Erik

I am not perceiving the same negativity you are.

It's valid feedback.

I see you have misread the discussion.

The point being made is that it is not a reasonable choice. It is a choice, yes, but it is not one the player should be choosing, because of opportunity cost. The player who focuses their tech gets their tech sooner.

As a practical matter, it's an unreasonable choice to be presented with.

It's a strategy game, and choices matter.

It is impressive that you reckon you can predict every possible scenario in a game you have not played, to the point where you can say with complete certainty that there can never be a situation where researching multiple things at the same time could be preferable.

As I understand it, crash research cannot be stopped. Once you crash, it's locked in until completion. So if you crash something slow and then realise that dang it, you need a quick point defense tech then what exactly can you do? I would assume that if you pick a second tech then the research points are split between them. That will slow down your big tech some, but if the point defense tech is cheap then it will get done fast regardless.

It's a niche scenario but maybe not that niche after all. It could happen. And if it does then there is an option to deal with the problem. Now, if players use that option when they should not then obviously they're not helping themselves, but isn't the whole point of a game with this much complexity to figure out when to do what and just as importantly when not to do it?

[StormingKiwi]

ORIGINAL: Spidey

ORIGINAL: StormingKiwi


I am not perceiving the same negativity you are.

It's valid feedback.

I see you have misread the discussion.

The point being made is that it is not a reasonable choice. It is a choice, yes, but it is not one the player should be choosing, because of opportunity cost. The player who focuses their tech gets their tech sooner.

As a practical matter, it's an unreasonable choice to be presented with.

It's a strategy game, and choices matter.

It is impressive that you reckon you can predict every possible scenario in a game you have not played, to the point where you can say with complete certainty that there can never be a situation where researching multiple things at the same time could be preferable.

As I understand it, crash research cannot be stopped. Once you crash, it's locked in until completion. So if you crash something slow and then realise that dang it, you need a quick point defense tech then what exactly can you do? I would assume that if you pick a second tech then the research points are split between them. That will slow down your big tech some, but if the point defense tech is cheap then it will get done fast regardless.

It's a niche scenario but maybe not that niche after all. It could happen. And if it does then there is an option to deal with the problem. Now, if players use that option when they should not then obviously they're not helping themselves, but isn't the whole point of a game with this much complexity to figure out when to do what and just as importantly when not to do it?

That is a strawman Never did I say that.

The feedback is that it is a noobtrap, Erik R is resistant to that feedback, and a specific scenario when an expert user can make use of that complexity doesn't change the fact that it is a noobtrap.

[Jorgen_CAB]

First off... I would like to say that I like how the new research system work... I'm in no way negative about that what so ever. It is a pretty solid system.

I do however like most others here think that multitasking research is mainly a new player trap as it is mathematically worse than not doing it.

I think we all recognise that it can possibly be used for when one project is in crash research and you need another project finished before the crashed one (if that takes a very long time). Although it probably is a very rare occurrence most of the time, but it can happen.

I think that most of the negativity is that it is presented as if it is a good choice in the game, as in you get to use it after you have a number of labs (some investment)... you get the feel as if this have to be a good thing. A person that don't stop to think of what they are doing are likely to use multi research without even understanding it is negative, believing it is a good thing. I think that is the main objection for how the feature is implemented, at least that is how I feel about it in general.

I have seen several streams where they used this for no real good reason at all and probably thought it was a good thing for some reason. Several streamers definitely talked about that you could research several things as if it was somehow beneficial to you and something they wanted to do. So yes... I think there is a general issue with how the feature is presented and how people generally will interpret it's actual use.

Other than that I see no problem or issues with research in any way... the new system is really good in my opinion.

[Edmon]

Hey guys,

I've read over all the feedback in this thread and I would like to add something here which I think the "noobtrap" side of the argument is overlooking.

In Distant Worlds 2, it is possible to gain large research bonuses to a particular technology, including bonuses where 50% of a technology is automatically filled in (researched) for you.

So, lets say your in the mid game and you've just started some big technology, since you always research 1 technology at the time, you've got nothing else going on.

Now, an event occurs and a different technology (Or indeed, several) now have a 50% bonus. You may want to (and it may be optimal) to start those technologies immediately, even though you have a project going already.



There may even be time limited research events, affecting only specific technologies. That means you will want to open up (or not, that's strategy for you) different projects at the same time to exploit these events and/or bonuses.


In short, there are always events and things going on. Looking at research in a vacuum is overlooking a huge part of the game that can directly affect research decision making.

[Jorgen_CAB]

If there is a timer on it or if there is some condition that I have to research it now then I see the merit in it being immediately beneficial.

If the current technology are on crash research there can be a benefit to add multiple technologies if you have a few that are almost finished, such as stolen technologies and the like for example. It depends on how important the currently researched technology is, as it will delay the first tech using multiple research as well.

If I don't have any research on crash research I can just push the new tech I just gained half research for to the top of the queue if it is more important than the one I currently is researching.

I agree that it can sometimes be useful. I don't necessarily think that one technology is more important just because you can potentially research it quicker, then all technologies with a lower cost would always be more important then tech with a higher cost, this depends on the technology in question and the one you are currently researching.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

There's a remarkable amount of negativity here for an optional mechanism from folks who have not yet played the game.

My issue is still that you are calling it a optional mechanic.

The Facts I am arguing from:
1. The default is 3
2. I. Will. Get. More. Then. One. Science. Station.
3. I. Will. Be. Using. The. Queue.

Sorry I had to add punctuation, but people still seem to argue as if those are not facts of playing the game.

If Nr 1 is not true, then please say so. Because a default of 1 would entirely invalidate the issue! Which is why I keep asking for that and nothing more or less!

If Nr. 2 is not true, I wonder what games we are talking about:
- I need extra Science Stations to get the bonuses
- I needed extra Science Stations to use Multiple Scientists
- there is a advisor that keeps suggesting new Science stations every 5 minutes, if there are any within range
- all this happens even if I do not know of the split mechanic

If Nr. 3 is not true, I wonder why you spend development time adding this feature? And why did DW1 had one per techtree?
So I think people using it should not be open for debate.

Summary:
You do not need to scrap the mechanic.
You do not need to make a massive rework on benefits.

You just need to change the default - a interger that I asume is in the configuration file - from 3 to 1.
Thas is all I would change with a mod to fix this.
That is all that is needed to end these discussions permanently.

[Erik Rutins]

I already agreed with changing the default to 1 in the other thread and I explained above that we're aiming to get that in for the release.

With that said, something that the player can easily change is by definition optional rather than required.

I'm still baffled at the perception by some here that simply by explaining why this additional choice has not "ruined" the research system, why you might even want to use it at times and that in the context of the whole game it's a minor thing, I'm cast as resistant to feedback or claiming that the feedback is not valid. You still have all the options you had in DW1 and more. You still have the ability to specialize your research, get specific bonuses to specific research areas, or spread it out, crash it, etc.

I realize you all have likely watched hours of preview streams at this point, but please trust me when I say that the research system is fine and once you have your hands on it, I expect this will not be a big concern. I regret the concern this change has caused and moreover that it wasn't clear from my earlier replies that the decision to shift it to a default of 1 had already been made. Hopefully this will conclude this topic.

Regards,

- Erik

[OddQuasar]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


From what I recall, in a previous forum thread where I was discussing this with many posters, I proposed making the addition of concurrent projects optional as a compromise for the release version to address the concerns that players might inadvertently be lead to a choice that is not the most optimized. We're in fact trying to get that into the release build.

I'm also quite confused as to why this is such a big deal...Erik said he'd try to make single research the default. Let's zoom out for a minute: Player 1 researches 10 techs in 10 years, one at a time. Player 2 researches 3 techs at a time for 10 years. At the end of those 10 years, both Player 1 and Player 2 have 10 completed techs. In addition, once they've been working on 3 techs for long enough, the time between completing research techs is effectively the same for both players. So yes, individual techs take longer, but overall the rate of tech acquisition is the same. When I actually get to play the game, I will likely make use of both methods, when they make sense. The true min/max is not choosing 1 at a time, all the time; it's leveraging the system available to research the things you want at the cadence you need. That may include using both strategies.

That said, strategy games present all kinds of non-optimal options in a game, it's up to the player to decide what they deem to be "optimal" and what tradeoffs they are willing to sacrifice. No one appears to be upset that the ship designer allows you to put cargo bays on an escort. that is a very sub-optimal choice.

[Brasidas2000]

The reason this seems so important to me, is that in DW1 I would design specific research centers for each type (since the procedural script lumped all three research lab types in one research station design), and locate them with the appropriate scientists at an appropriate location to get the maximum research benefit. This would result in my empire uniformly outperforming it's peers in research and in building wonders and ship capabilities. The pain was after research station sizes increased, I had to manually design and upgrade each station (it was only 3).

I was using the specificity of the game to optimize my research in maximizing output in all three areas because each area was completely different from each other.

So please, if anyone would know the answers to the following questions:

Would the approach detailed previously still be valid for DW2 or is research now structured so as to make it redundant?

Are research locations all equally capable across all fields in DW2 or do they retain bonuses for specific fields only?

Do scientists still specialize in DW2 or are they now equally capable in all fields?

Thank you in advance for your time and assistance.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I already agreed with changing the default to 1 in the other thread and I explained above that we're aiming to get that in for the release.

I did not see that.

If I had, the 2nd answer here would have been "The default is now set to 1".
And this thread would propably never seen more then 5 replies total, unless we went off topic [:)]

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Brasidas2000
The reason this seems so important to me, is that in DW1 I would design specific research centers for each type (since the procedural script lumped all three research lab types in one research station design), and locate them with the appropriate scientists at an appropriate location to get the maximum research benefit. This would result in my empire uniformly outperforming it's peers in research and in building wonders and ship capabilities. The pain was after research station sizes increased, I had to manually design and upgrade each station (it was only 3).

I was using the specificity of the game to optimize my research in maximizing output in all three areas because each area was completely different from each other.

Understood and that was good play in DW1. Next time please just ask. I'm happy to answer questions and help explain DW2 in areas where players have concerns.

Would the approach detailed previously still be valid for DW2 or is research now structured so as to make it redundant?
Are research locations all equally capable across all fields in DW2 or do they retain bonuses for specific fields only?
Do scientists still specialize in DW2 or are they now equally capable in all fields?
Thank you in advance for your time and assistance.

It's different, but also similar in that the unique bonuses matter (even more I'd say) but the tree is no longer split so the way you optimize is diffeerent.

In DW2, it was a design goal to avoid "runaway" research, so you can only build research stations at research locations. Research Stations and Labs are of one type, as is your base research output (no longer split into three arbitrary sections) because everything that was in the old separated categories is now all on one combined tree with all that and more.

However, each research location in DW2 has a unique research bonus. For example, you may find a location with +10% Hyperdrive Research and a different one with +20% Construction Research. You may start with +10% Construction Research from your race if you're playing as the Ackdarians. You may have a scientist who has a skill which gives +10% Hyperdrive Research. That means without those stations, you have +10% Construction Research from your race and a potential +10% Hyperdrive from a scientist. Once you build those stations, you now have +30% Construction Research and +20% Hyperdrive Research.

Those bonuses increase your effective research output for the specific area and projects those bonuses apply to. Hyperdrive bonuses apply to researching new Hyperdrives, that's one sub-tree on the overall Research three. Construction bonuses apply to researching new ship and station hulls, giving you more ship roles and options as well as increasing the max size of your hulls. It also gives you better construction yards, access to some construction facilities. It also applies to StarFighter and Fighter Bay research, as well as Docking Bays.

All those projects on the research tree will now get those output bonuses applied if you research them.

In addition, some projects require you to reach a certain overall bonus (whether from research stations/locations, characters, artifact or facilities - all combined to a total bonus) in order to start the project. Usually around 20% is the first threshhold, then 30 or 40%, etc.

There are many specialized research facilities you can build on your worlds to increase your bonus in each of the areas, for example the 1 per Empire Construction Academy, which gives +10% Construction Research and +5% Engine Research, or the
1 per Galaxy Vortigern Energy Complex, which gives +20% Reactor Research, +10% Hyperdrive Research and +10% Shields Research, or even the end-game 1 per Galaxy Galactic Science Center, which gives +20% to All Research.

In addition, by default the research tree now has some variability and also you only see what the paths from your current research projects to the next ones, not beyond that.

The various bonuses are clearly shown on each project as well as in a summarized bonus tab under the Research menu so that you can easily see what you have.

The net result of this is that I find exploring for new research locations to be quite important, then claiming them and defending those claims to be critical. Getting your scientists onto the best research stations (as while they also have global effects, some skills will affect a specific station's output) and getting rid of bad ones while trying to protect your best ones is also important. Then choose which research facilities are the most advantageous to either reinforce your research advantage in a particular area or to fill in gaps where you can't advance your discoveries as far as you want and try to build those. Finally, Espionage and trade can be useful for unlocking or getting techs you can't otherwise get, as can salvage and reverse engineering/dismantling more advanced ships you may find.

I hope that helps explain how things work in DW2.

Regards,

- Erik

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: Brasidas2000

The reason this seems so important to me, is that in DW1 I would design specific research centers for each type (since the procedural script lumped all three research lab types in one research station design), and locate them with the appropriate scientists at an appropriate location to get the maximum research benefit. This would result in my empire uniformly outperforming it's peers in research and in building wonders and ship capabilities. The pain was after research station sizes increased, I had to manually design and upgrade each station (it was only 3).

I was using the specificity of the game to optimize my research in maximizing output in all three areas because each area was completely different from each other.

So please, if anyone would know the answers to the following questions:

Would the approach detailed previously still be valid for DW2 or is research now structured so as to make it redundant?

Are research locations all equally capable across all fields in DW2 or do they retain bonuses for specific fields only?

Do scientists still specialize in DW2 or are they now equally capable in all fields?

Thank you in advance for your time and assistance.

It works quite differently... in DW1 you could essentially just build one science station that contained all the labs you ever needed, preferably at your home planet, that made it quite safe. If the home planet would fall you would be in more trouble than loosing the research base anyway. As you were limited by research from your population the small effect of research bonuses in DW1 was almost negligible on your economy.

In DW2 on the other hand you must build as many research stations as you are able and you can only build them where there is a research bonus. The station is also limited to a specific number of labs. You don't get as much research from your population and are likely going to get most of it from your station. You also can have a lab in each of your space ports at colonies as well.
The station will generate half its research as soon as it is built the other half you only gain if you fund it with tax credits.
This means that research locations is worth their weight in gold now and you might even fight to secure them.

Scientists work the same way as they did in DW1 as far as I know.

***EDIT***
Oops question already answered...

[GHerr]

I'm so sorry for reopening this can of worms. My intention was not to stir the pot. Forgive me. This game looks awesome, I've already purchased, nothing but praises over here.

[Erik Rutins]

No problem Gherr. Hey, in exchange, you more or less got a Dev Diary on Research. [8D]

[Slish]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

No problem Gherr. Hey, in exchange, you more or less got a Dev Diary on Research. [8D]

lol