Convoy lines are completely messed up

[Joseignacio]

Resource Lending.7z Here you go!

Steps to follow:
1. Delete the CW trade agreement with China (Japan just took Burma, so the Burmese oil can't be given anymore)
2. Modify the existing trade agreements to USSR so CW now sends 2 resources AND a BP, and/or try to open a NEW agreement with USSR so the USA sends a BP instead.
3. Open screen 'Production Planning' -> endless calculation starts.

Just make sure there are not enough convoys in place (yet) to the USSR to accomodate the transort of these BPs.
Under normal circumstances, the BPs should just be marked as 'lost' until enough convoys are put in place, but in this case I just see an endless calculation loop starting.

This doesn't seem to be a windows zipped file. I cannot get it to run in MWIF.

7z (seven-zip) is a compression method similar to Winzip. Usually you can use each other to unzip the other using the program menu options.

[Joseignacio]

Hi again.

I have followed the discussions with great interest and tried some of the suggested solutions. Sometimes they seem to work, mostly though nothing happens and the CONV lines are left in shambles.

However, anyway you look at it, it is neither acceptable nor an expression of professionalism to let unfathomable gamemechanics decide the outcome of such a central issue as RES and PROD. I cannot understand why this issue have been left unattended for so many years. To me it seems more important that fiddling with AI.

I strongly urge the developers to prioritise the RES/PROD issue. For all practical purposes to me and some of my fellow gamers the game is unplayable. For quite a long time I have retained the game on my PC updating when available and tried a few rounds just to see if the issue have been solved. If not - well - lets wait it out - again. So far nothing really substantial has happend. Somehow it is hard to feel cheated once in a while. After all, the game isn't a give away.

Best regards and thank you for all advice until now.

Told ya

[Centuur]

Resource Lending.7z Here you go!

Steps to follow:
1. Delete the CW trade agreement with China (Japan just took Burma, so the Burmese oil can't be given anymore)
2. Modify the existing trade agreements to USSR so CW now sends 2 resources AND a BP, and/or try to open a NEW agreement with USSR so the USA sends a BP instead.
3. Open screen 'Production Planning' -> endless calculation starts.

Just make sure there are not enough convoys in place (yet) to the USSR to accomodate the transort of these BPs.
Under normal circumstances, the BPs should just be marked as 'lost' until enough convoys are put in place, but in this case I just see an endless calculation loop starting.

This doesn't seem to be a windows zipped file. I cannot get it to run in MWIF.

7z (seven-zip) is a compression method similar to Winzip. Usually you can use each other to unzip the other using the program menu options.

Windows doesn't give me the possibility to unzip this file. I don't know how to proceed.

[paulderynck]

I have 7zip so I unzipped with that and then zipped it normally. Try this.

Resource Lending filefix.zip

(1.53 MiB) Downloaded 618 times

[Centuur]

I have 7zip so I unzipped with that and then zipped it normally. Try this.Resource Lending filefix.zip

Thanks Paul, I can restore the file now.

I'll check on things during the weekend.

[Centuur]

Resources.zip

(1.58 MiB) Downloaded 13 times

Resource Lending.7z Here you go!

Steps to follow:
1. Delete the CW trade agreement with China (Japan just took Burma, so the Burmese oil can't be given anymore)
2. Modify the existing trade agreements to USSR so CW now sends 2 resources AND a BP, and/or try to open a NEW agreement with USSR so the USA sends a BP instead.
3. Open screen 'Production Planning' -> endless calculation starts.

Just make sure there are not enough convoys in place (yet) to the USSR to accomodate the transort of these BPs.
Under normal circumstances, the BPs should just be marked as 'lost' until enough convoys are put in place, but in this case I just see an endless calculation loop starting.

In the gamesave you send me, there are not enough convoys in place to get the buildpoints to the USSR. I changed the lending agreements to your specification. Production planning takes a long time to start (over two minutes of calculation time is needed on my laptop). The game proceeds normally and states both build points traded to the USSR to be lost due to no path (which is correct).

Here is the gamesave from after changing things. I was using the latest version (and you are not). So I advise to upgrade to version 5.0.0.10.

[TeaLeaf]

Resources.zip

Resource Lending.7z Here you go!

Steps to follow:
1. Delete the CW trade agreement with China (Japan just took Burma, so the Burmese oil can't be given anymore)
2. Modify the existing trade agreements to USSR so CW now sends 2 resources AND a BP, and/or try to open a NEW agreement with USSR so the USA sends a BP instead.
3. Open screen 'Production Planning' -> endless calculation starts.

Just make sure there are not enough convoys in place (yet) to the USSR to accomodate the transort of these BPs.
Under normal circumstances, the BPs should just be marked as 'lost' until enough convoys are put in place, but in this case I just see an endless calculation loop starting.

In the gamesave you send me, there are not enough convoys in place to get the buildpoints to the USSR. I changed the lending agreements to your specification. Production planning takes a long time to start (over two minutes of calculation time is needed on my laptop). The game proceeds normally and states both build points traded to the USSR to be lost due to no path (which is correct).

Here is the gamesave from after changing things. I was using the latest version (and you are not). So I advise to upgrade to version 5.0.0.10.

Thanks for the effort!
I know there weren't enough convoys in place. For me that's a common situation during resource lending. Agreements are changed and after that, convoys are matched to the new situation.

At first both BP traded to USSR should indeed be stated as lost. That's what I would expect, not an endless calculation loop. Since the production screen normally opens within a 3 seconds, I might not have waited the apparently needed >120 seconds. I have not been counting .
I think it's safe to say that >120 seconds to load the production screen is still way too long anyway, but again, thanks for the effort. Thumbs UP!

I have also been following the discussion about 'convoying' (on multiple threads), and I have to agree with most.
I can say I have by now mastered MWIF 's convoy system in that I can always get it to do what I want. Even if I have to reload a previous turn/impulse.
But it is not for the faint hearted... Sometimes it takes a really long time to figure out how to make MWIF do what you want what you can do on your tabletop in a few seconds, because you need to work around an immovable wall that the program has put in front of you.

So IMHO there is always a way, but sometimes you must move around an immovable wall (or, apparently, wait >120 seconds for a screen to load).
And I still like to play MWIF > tabletop for my sologames because MWIF still takes a lot of bookkeeping away from you.

But I would outright adore MWIF and promote it to all my wargaming friends if:
- the convoy AI was not so frustrating
- more of the great options were implemented (to name a few: guard banner armies, or city based volunteers, if still not working).

Personally, I couldn't care less for playing MWIF against an AI. Even more so knowing the convoy AI will probably kill the CW for me anyway (if I would play Axis against an allied AI).

[Angeldust2]

I can say I have by now mastered MWIF 's convoy system in that I can always get it to do what I want. Even if I have to reload a previous turn/impulse.

I admire and envy you!

But I would outright adore MWIF and promote it to all my wargaming friends if:
- the convoy AI was not so frustrating
- more of the great options were implemented (to name a few: guard banner armies, or city based volunteers, if still not working).

Totally agree. CBV optional is coded btw, and working.

[rkr1958]

1. Below is one example that illustrates the frustration that I and I believe many of us have with MWIF convoy routing and production.

2. The left half of the graphic are the CW & French convoy routes and production that I configured (achieved) at setup.

3. The right half shows what MWIF did to all that after CW & France declared war on Germany. This is before the allies have had their first impulse.

4. Looks like a total mess, right!?

5. Because of my vast experience with MWIF and understanding of how it does things I was very quickly able to get back to convoy routes and production I achieved at setup by forcing (i.e., defaulting) the Hanoi, French Indo-China RP to Lyons, France.

6. Quick fix, right? It was a quick fix only because I've spent the 10's of hours (maybe 100's of hours, who knows) required to climb the very steep learning curve that's MWIF convoy routing and production. Like a hand full of other folks on this forum, a steep curve that I suspect we've have had to climb alone.

7. Now honestly, if I was starting out new with MWIF there's no way I would have the desire to climb that curve. Like Moses and the Israelites who wandered the desert for 40-years, I suspect if they knew what they were getting into that the majority, if not all, might not have left Egypt.

8. I suspect for the casual MWIF, but experienced WIF, player that in encountering the situation below that they might struggle for hours trying to get production back to what they wanted. And some may succeed, some may accept with MWIF gives them, but some (maybe most) might give up and go back to Vassal. A real shame in my opinion.

9. Controlling convoy routing and production SHOULD NOT BE THIS HARD! This is what, in my opinion, makes MWIF a GOOD game. If it wasn't nearly this hard to control then I'd say it was a GREAT game.

[Centuur]

1. Below is one example that illustrates the frustration that I and I believe many of us have with MWIF convoy routing and production.

2. The left half of the graphic are the CW & French convoy routes and production that I configured (achieved) at setup.

3. The right half shows what MWIF did to all that after CW & France declared war on Germany. This is before the allies have had their first impulse.

4. Looks like a total mess, right!?

5. Because of my vast experience with MWIF and understanding of how it does things I was very quickly able to get back to convoy routes and production I achieved at setup by forcing (i.e., defaulting) the Hanoi, French Indo-China RP to Lyons, France.

6. Quick fix, right? It was a quick fix only because I've spent the 10's of hours (maybe 100's of hours, who knows) required to climb the very steep learning curve that's MWIF convoy routing and production. Like a hand full of other folks on this forum, a steep curve that I suspect we've have had to climb alone.

7. Now honestly, if I was starting out new with MWIF there's no way I would have the desire to climb that curve. Like Moses and the Israelites who wandered the desert for 40-years, I suspect if they knew what they were getting into that the majority, if not all, might not have left Egypt.

8. I suspect for the casual MWIF, but experienced WIF, player that in encountering the situation below that they might struggle for hours trying to get production back to what they wanted. And some may succeed, some may accept with MWIF gives them, but some (maybe most) might give up and go back to Vassal. A real shame in my opinion.

9. Controlling convoy routing and production SHOULD NOT BE THIS HARD! This is what, in my opinion, makes MWIF a GOOD game. If it wasn't nearly this hard to control then I'd say it was a GREAT game.

I agree totally.

[rkr1958]

Sorry but I'm going to continue my rant with yet another example of MWIF convoy routing/production insanity.

It's beginning of turn 2 with several new trades started, all of which I consider straight forward for MWIF to handle. But, I'd be wrong!

USA -> CW, 2 oil. For some insane reason MWIF ALWAYS insists that any oil given by the US to the CW include the one in Fairbanks, Alaska. Then it decides to route that oil for production to Glasgow through the Pacific which takes 14 CPs and screws up my allied CP routes in both the Pacific and Atlantic. I did make the effort to swap out the Alaskan oil for another one to be sent; however, whenever I save and then reload the game file MWIF ignores that change and includes the Alaskan oil again, messing everything up AGAIN.

Also, and I'm curious about another new trade; i.e., CW -> France, 3 BPs. For some reason MWIF says there's no path. I thought getting trade agreements through got priority in MWIF over everything else? With 10 CW CPs in the Bay of Biscay, shouldn't this trade deal use 3 of those, get through from London to Paris and screw up 3 other (non-trade) routes until I can either get 3 additional CPs in the Bay of Biscay and/or Faeroes Gap. From an ASW perspective, I'd want to put the 3 additional CPs in the Faeroes GAP and route the 8 resources coming for North America or the Caribbean to the UK through the [Caribbean] -> East Coast -> North Atlantic -> Faeroes Gap. The reason for the 3 replacement CPs in the Faeroes Gap is that I want to keep the axis search modifier for CPs at sea at -1 in the Bay of Biscay and not increase it to -2 if any of the 3 replacement CPs are moved there (i.e., 11 - 20 CPs gives the enemy -2 search modifier).

In my CF Take 3 game & AAR I decided initially to handle the more "troublesome" trade agreements off the books. But, after this initial mess, I think I'm going to handle them all off the books and enforce them myself. Sure I risk making a mistake or two but even if I mess up now and then would that be worse than what MWIF is doing? So, all trade agreements are "off the books". And, if MWIF gives me any other trouble; specifically routing non-trade RPs, I will handle them off the books too! One specific example I've encountered before and will likely encounter this game is when I want to route RP(s) from North America -> East Coast -> Canadian Coast -> Denmark Straights -> Faeroes Gap -> UK. I realize this takes 4 CPs per RP versus 3 (East Coast -> North Atlantic -> Faeroes Gap). However; at the height of the Battle of the Atlantic I try to disperses the convoy routes and keep the North Atlantic at no more than 10 CPs. I have never ever been able to get MWIF to route North American RPs the 4 CP route way. MWIF always insists on sending them through the North Atlantic and Bay of Biscay even at the expense of blocking RPs from Africa or those coming around the horn of Africa from reaching the UK. More Insanity that I'm going to avoid by handling these, and any other troublesome, routes myself (i.e., off the books).

[rkr1958]

Another example of why MWIF drives me crazy with production & convoy routes! Probably the easiest way to address this it to take the 1 CP out of the Central Atlantic and put it in the Caribbean and then put another CP in the East Coast, which so take care the of this issue at the cost of having to use an extra CP (i.e., 5 vs 4 CPs) to route the RP.

WHY MWIF?!! WHY?!!! ARE YOU TRYING TO DRIVE ME CRAZY?!!!

[rkr1958]

Well that worked but did cost me (i.e., CW) an extra CP.

[davidc]

Here's one for your list Ronnie
Italy has conquered Algeria
Italy has a convoy point in the Western Med and the Italian Coast
MWIF routes the Sardinia resource through Western Med leaving the Algerian resource idle

Italy.jpg (115.62 KiB) Viewed 984 times

Save game

Game_2.zip

(1.58 MiB) Downloaded 15 times

[dyrn]

Well. I am convinced. Dear developers, please fix the convoy system before anything else - or please inform us ordinary players og why the system has not been fixed ages ago. Is it due to unsurmontable program difficulties?

[rkr1958]

Here's one for your list Ronnie
Italy has conquered Algeria
Italy has a convoy point in the Western Med and the Italian Coast
MWIF routes the Sardinia resource through Western Med leaving the Algerian resource idle

Italy.jpg

Save game
Game_2.zip

David, fortunately your issue is an easy fix if you know "the secret password to MWIF convoy routing and production".

1. Make sure that you've cleared both the Defaults & Overrides for the Sardinia RP. Both of which are cleared for both the Sardinia & Bechar, Algeria RPs in your attached game file. Just trying to provide general instructions in case anyone else has a similar issue.

2. Set the Default for the Bechar, Algeria RP to an Italian factory "near" the coast of the West Med (e.g., Milan).

3. What I've deduced from MWIF routing is that set RP -> factory pairing (i.e., Override, Default) takes priority of not set RPs. So MWIF apparently routes the set pairing before the unset RP, so in this case sends the Bechar, Algeria RP to mainland Italy through the West Med. Then when it comes to the Sardinia RP, there's an unused Italian CP in the Italian Coast that it can use to get that RP to a factory too.

4. I've deduced that the order that MWIF goes through RPs, RP -> factory or Oil -> saved pairings, is: (1) Trade, (2) Override, (3) Default, (4) Unset (i.e., Override & Default cleared).

5. The user, we the players, effectively have four controls over convoy routing & production which are: (1) idle RP, (2) override RP to a factory (or oil save), (3) default RP to a factory (or oil save) and (4) how we place our CPs in various Sea Areas.

6. While placing, or not placing, CPs in various sea areas seems odd I've also deduce that MWIF uses a greedy approach to resource routing which means when it processes a RP in a higher priority group (4 above) it takes the quickest route it can without regard to later routings. So often times, as in the example above, a RP is being happily routed one way, you place additional CPs to route a new or previous idle RP another way, and MWIF reroutes the previous RP through the sea area you wanted to take the new RP which is now blocked. That to me is one of the most frustrating aspect of MWIF convoy routing. I've deduced that MWIF recalculates all this every time the game file is saved and reloaded or when you chance something (i.e., add another RP and route).

7. Also, wrt/Trade we do have the ability to choose which RPs go to which countries and MWIF seems to honor those choices 75%+ of the time (gut estimate).

[rkr1958]

Well. I am convinced. Dear developers, please fix the convoy system before anything else - or please inform us ordinary players og why the system has not been fixed ages ago. Is it due to unsurmontable program difficulties?

Well, there's only one developer and that's Steve. I could be wrong but my take is that Steve doesn't believe that there's anything wrong with the MWIF convoy system.

I've said this numerous times and I'll repeat it again. MWIF as it is now is a good game. One in which I've derived 1000's of enjoyable hours playing, analyzing, talking about and yes, complaining about.

However, if the convoy system had been made more user friendly and more importantly the user have been given the option to have total control over the system, then I'd classify MWIF at a great game. And I feel that the majority of the community and enthusiasm we had 10 to 15 years ago around this game and on this forum would still be here. No way to prove or disprove that but that's just my gut. Either way, I find the steep community and enthusiasm fall off about MWIF sad.

MWIF in the state that it's in now, and has been for the past 7 years, is by far the best WW2 strategic game I own or have ever played. It handles combine land, air & sea in a way that approximates the WW2 history of such operations and far better than any other game I've played.

[Joseignacio]

La Virgen

[Joseignacio]

Well. I am convinced. Dear developers, please fix the convoy system before anything else - or please inform us ordinary players og why the system has not been fixed ages ago. Is it due to unsurmontable program difficulties?

Well, there's only one developer and that's Steve. I could be wrong but my take is that Steve doesn't believe that there's anything wrong with the MWIF convoy system.

I dont think this is possible, because he is a smart man. Another matter is that denying that there is a problem is an easy way not to have to solve it (or at least not to have to solve it by now, while you are working on more cash inputs).

[rkr1958]

(1) I've got another example which I'm posting to ALSO show an easy fix to MWIF AI sub-optimal production assignment.

(2) The situation was that Germany pushed into Belgium and has ZOC over the Metz RP, which prevents it from being railed out to a factory (other than Metz).

(3) MWIF decides to route the adjacent RP to the west of Metz to the Metz factory which means the Metz RP goes idle.

(4) The fix is to default the Metz RP to the Metz factory when then forces MWIF to route the adjacent RP to another factory, in this case in Paris, which increases French production by 1 BP from 7 to 8.