When does auto-disband trigger?

[Yaab]

Dec 1941, Allies

I have several small xAKLs on Resources runs from PI islands to Manila. All PI islands are NavSearched by Jap aircraft. I use a lot of leap-frogging in bad weather and move my xAKLs 3-5 hexes max at full speed between intermediate bases. All those TFs are set to Do Not unload/ No Refuel/Auto-Disband. To my dismay the xAKLs reach their destinatiin, but instead of auto-disbanding, they linger on next turn with 10/10 detection and I have to disband them manually.

I thought that auto-disband fires once conditions are met (ships arrive at destinations>auto-disband). My only guess is a TF has to be docked to be auto-disbanded, and the auto-docker leaves lost of TFs undocked in port level 1-4 once they arrive in port.

[Chris21wen]

Auto disband only works on the TF home port, plus there can be a one turn delay in disbanding for exactly the same reason TF do not alway automatically unload on the turn they arrive. I.e. They arrive to late in the day.

[JanSako]

If this is against the AI, you would be better off just using single-ship TF's, they are seldom attacked by NAV anyway. Could still get hit during the search phase, of course. Against a player, they will just 'sweep' the islands with a pair of DD's as soon as they spot you doing that... which apparently they just did

[BBfanboy]

If you watch regular movement of TFs into a port you will notice that (even with enough movement points left) in a majority of cases they stop in the hex outside the port and enter next turn. There is something in the code that slows down the actual entry into the port hex - simulating the harbour pilot, following narrow channels (especially if there are mines) and avoiding other shipping. Disbandment itself (without docking) would entail anchoring/attaching to a mooring buoy and shutting down the engines. More ops points abstracted for that.

Your TF was doing short hops so it could make into the next port, but ran out of ops points for disbandment. If your watch the little window at the bottom left during turn execution you will see disbandment taking place at the end of the AM and PM naval phases, so it is one of those things that might happen or might not, depending on a few ops points.

[Yaab]

Chris21wen, bbfanboy - thanks for the tips. I am switching to 2-3 hex hops with my xAKLs. Will see how it goes.

[Yaab]

Well, it didn't go well.

This ship travelled two hexes from Surigao (base is two hexes south on Mindanao) to Baybay. Full speed, auto-disband, no refuel, do not unload. The ship still sits in Baybay hex on next turn undisbanded. Luckily, weather sided with us this time (Thunderstorms).

EDIT: One caveat. A TF my waste its turn either retreating from enemy TF or enemy air threat. Maybe the xAKL have done so, but it is highely unlikely.

[Chris21wen]

After a quick test run it appears that loaded TF will not auto disband. You can manually do it. There is squat in the manual about auto disband or for that matter about disbanding while loaded although I know you can't when loaded with troops.

I'm convinced that was not always the case?

[Yaab]

Well, I am leap-frogging both empty xAKLs and loaded xAKLs. It seems the empty ones do disband (in my screenshot an xAKL sits in Surigao --- this is an empty inbound xAKL which disbanded on previous turn) . I also combed the manual for auto-disband info and found none. Thanks for testing the whole thing. This non-disband thing makes my life in early PI more miserable (Japs are probably rejoicing though)

EDIT: so I probably need to LRCAP inbound ships that carry cargo.

[Chris21wen]

Well, I am leap-frogging both empty xAKLs and loaded xAKLs. It seems the empty ones do disband (in my screenshot an xAKL sits in Surigao --- this is an empty inbound xAKL which disbanded on previous turn) . I also combed the manual for auto-disband info and found none. Thanks for testing the whole thing. This non-disband thing makes my life in early PI more miserable (Japs are probably rejoicing though)

EDIT: so I probably need to LRCAP inbound ships that carry cargo.

.
LRCAP will help

[Yaab]

A test, sort of.

A TF was created in Manila with 2 DDs and an empty AVD. The units were to move to adjacent Bataan and auto-disband in Bataan. No refuel, auto-disband setting. 1 hex distance to the destination.

To my dismay this TF was sitting in Bataan hex during AM and PM phases, being spotted by numerous Jap planes in both phases! Granted, the next turn started with the TF having safely disbanded in Bataan, but I was extremely lucky that the TF was not attacked by Jap TBs with torps or bombs. I was hoping the TF would either disband in AM or at least in PM phase, but it was not so.

[Yaab]

If you watch regular movement of TFs into a port you will notice that (even with enough movement points left) in a majority of cases they stop in the hex outside the port and enter next turn. There is something in the code that slows down the actual entry into the port hex - simulating the harbour pilot, following narrow channels (especially if there are mines) and avoiding other shipping. Disbandment itself (without docking) would entail anchoring/attaching to a mooring buoy and shutting down the engines. More ops points abstracted for that.

Your TF was doing short hops so it could make into the next port, but ran out of ops points for disbandment. If your watch the little window at the bottom left during turn execution you will see disbandment taking place at the end of the AM and PM naval phases, so it is one of those things that might happen or might not, depending on a few ops points.

You explanation about harbor pilots sound reasonable. However, why is it then, that a newly created TF starts moving away from its orginal port without a similar delay? It should work on both inbound and outbound TFs the same way.

[RangerJoe]

If you watch regular movement of TFs into a port you will notice that (even with enough movement points left) in a majority of cases they stop in the hex outside the port and enter next turn. There is something in the code that slows down the actual entry into the port hex - simulating the harbour pilot, following narrow channels (especially if there are mines) and avoiding other shipping. Disbandment itself (without docking) would entail anchoring/attaching to a mooring buoy and shutting down the engines. More ops points abstracted for that.

Your TF was doing short hops so it could make into the next port, but ran out of ops points for disbandment. If your watch the little window at the bottom left during turn execution you will see disbandment taking place at the end of the AM and PM naval phases, so it is one of those things that might happen or might not, depending on a few ops points.

You explanation about harbor pilots sound reasonable. However, why is it then, that a newly created TF starts moving away from its orginal port without a similar delay? It should work on both inbound and outbound TFs the same way.

Maybe getting out is easier than getting in.

[Platoonist]

According to a 2009 post by developer Don Bowen, TFs auto-disband at the very end of each phase, when the message "DISBANDING HUMAN CONTROLLED TASK FORCES" is displayed on the screen. So, a TF can arrive at it's home port during a turn and then still be attacked before the auto-disband occurs. Going by the log of daily Combat Events that means it occurs late in the sequence of play long after all movement and combat.

soe.jpg (122.9 KiB) Viewed 1287 times

[Yaab]

Thread resurrection.

So I tested TF disbandment (empty TF with Transport mission, made of escort ships and empty xAKLs) a bit and this is what I have found:

-TFs always arrive in destination hexes in AM phase.

TF, cruise speed, covers 4 hexes in a turn, select a destination base 4 hexes away - you arrive at the destination in AM phase.
TF, mission speed, covers 5 hexes in a turn, select a destination base 5 hexes away - you arrive at the destination in AM phase.
TF, max speed, covers 6 hexes in a turn, select a destination base 6 hexes away - you arrive at the destination in AM phase.
TF, max speed, covers 6 hexes in a turn, select an open sea hex 7 hexes away - you arrive in the last reachable hex in AM phase.

Thus:
-TFs go through enemy's AM and PM Recon phases, AM and PM NavSearch phases, AM and PM NavAttack phases
-TFs cannot shake their DL, as TFs clear their DLs when Day or Night phase ends (as per the manual)
-TFs only recourse in shaking their DL, is a change of weather between AM and PM phases, over TF's hex and enemy air base hexes, cancelling enemy air mission against the TFs

Basically, in a combat area, where enemy NavSearch and NavAttack missions are present, such TFs suffer heavy, sometimes lopsided, losses waitng for their disbandment. Multiple escorts with DP guns are unable to fend off all attacking aircraft.

Thus, to up the chances of TFs survival, they have to LRCAPed from the destination base or a nearby base, provided you have spare aircraft to do so.

[Chris21wen]

What happens if TF speed destination are not the same? Sorry but I find your analysis flawed. I also add you still do not appreciate the linear nature of this game. Further when would you disband a TF in the game sequence bearing in mind that not all TF are empty and have to be unload, vary in size and take time to disband and probably other thing as well.

[Yaab]

I was only testing for automaic disbandment of TFs which comprise of totally empty xAK ships and are set to Auto-Disband orders.

In my testing I noticed that TFs always arrive in destination hexes in AM phase. This is was attested ad nauseam by countless enemy Recon/NavSearch messages, and, more worryingly, be enemy air attacks in Morning and Afternoon phases on TF that reached their destination hexes. Thus, trying to time my TF arrival in a destination hex as late in a turn as possible was in vain - no TF ever arrived in PM phase in a destination hex, even if I tried to time TF's movement to journey length.

Consider a TF that sails to a base 4 hexes away. The TF comprises of slow xAKLs. The TF speed is set to Cruise, thus the TF will cover 4 hexes in a turn at a speed of 2 hexes per phase, as attested on its ships' screen. You would think its movement would be divided evenly into the Night phase (2 hexes) and the Day phase (2 hexes). If we further subdivide the Day phase into AM and PM phase, you would think the last hex of the journey (the 4th hex) would be covered in the PM phase.

Alas, every TF, no matter their speed/orders settings, always arrives in a destination hex in AM phase.

If a TF cannot complete a journey in one turn, it will finish its movement in whatever hex it can reach, but it will always reach it in AM phase again.


So what I have gathered so far is this:

-TFs always arrive at destination in AM phase

-empty TF set to auto-disband will disband automatically after sitting out AM and PH phases in a port. HOWEVER, disbandment doesn't occur 100% of the time. Some TFs still have to be manually disbanded next turn.

-loading TFs that are docked will undock automatically provided their DL is high enough. Undocked TF will load at a slower pace.

-loaded TF with Do Not Unload orders and Auto-Disband orders never disband automatically. They will sit out AM and PM phases in a port, and they will continue to do so on subsequent turns, until you disband them manually.



Now, I am writing I all this, because I play against Japanese AI with some house-rules. One of the house-rules uses non-universal supply for the Allies (Commonwealth units use Commonwealth-made supplies, PI/USA use US-made supplies ect). Thus, in order to boost supply on Luzon, I need to bring US-made supplies there. In addition to US-made supplies I can also bring resources to Luzon which can be then stockpiled in Manila and later used by Manila's LI. So I try first to send empty xAKL ships to Phillipine ports with resources prodcution. The ships arrive at their destinations and are whacked by Japanese aircraft, because the ships spend AM and PM phases in one hex wiating for their disbandment at turn's end. If the ships survive, they now have to load resources as a TF, which leads to constant TF undocking due to high DL from Japanese aircraft. If the ships finally have a full load of resources, they have to reach a port on Luzon (Batangas is best) to deliver them. You could try hopping the ships via intermittent bases, but loaded TFs set to Do Not Unload/Auto-Disband never disband, so you sit in those intermittent bases in AM and PM phases, waiting for Japanese air attacks. If you finally reach Luzon, you can unload your rescources. Here, again, undocking due to high DL lengthens the whole process by reducing unload rates but at least now you can be LRCAPed by fighters from Manila/Clark Field .

[Yaab]

Come to think of it, wouldn't TFs with highest IDs arrive last at a destination?

[JanSako]

I see the confusion .

The crux is the sequence of play:

- Naval movement night phase
- Naval movement day phase
- Air Morning phase
- Air PM phase

This is how it goes, so any and all ship movement is always concluded BEFORE the Air phase begins (even the special CV react, sort of). Since the Auto-Disband happens at the end of turn & only then, the ships will stay in the base getting attacked from the air all day before they disband (as stated above).
I am only pointing out the reason, and that ships do not arrive at the base in the 'morning phase', but rather during the day movement phase, of which there is only one for ships.

[Yaab]

There is on remaining issue.

Let's say my empty TFs with Auto-Disband orders survived air attacks in AM and PM phases. However, next turn, some of those TFs are disbanded, but some are not. I cannot detect a pattern governing the auto-disband procedure. It is not a big issue, but it add clicks since you have to disband the manually, plus you have to check your ports. Somewhat annoying.

[szmike]

it's just OCD... it will disband next night phase, no need to click... except the urge we feel