Cruft vs. szmike, Babeslite Scen 1 with 3-day turns

[Captain Cruft]

He is definitely coming for Singapore. There is a vast army encamped at Johore Bharu.

[PaxMondo]

He is definitely coming for Singapore. There is a vast army encamped at Johore Bharu.

IMO, that's good. Hopefully you don't have too much in Singers, but truthfully at this point it is what it is. Pull remnants of good units, and evacuate everything back to east of HK ... leave small unit remnants to force him to attack each base, but ignore defense otherwise. If he cuts you off, you lose those units entirely. That's the only thing you cannot allow.

GO!!!

[Captain Cruft]

He is definitely coming for Singapore. There is a vast army encamped at Johore Bharu.

IMO, that's good. Hopefully you don't have too much in Singers, but truthfully at this point it is what it is. Pull remnants of good units, and evacuate everything back to east of HK ... leave small unit remnants to force him to attack each base, but ignore defense otherwise. If he cuts you off, you lose those units entirely. That's the only thing you cannot allow.

GO!!!

My strategy is all about delay, so we stand and fight. I have lost and re-incarnated about 10 Divisions already, and there will be more to come.

[RangerJoe]

A "winning" strategy or at least one to slow the enemy down is to attack his amphibious task forces. Without enough APAs/LSIs and AKAs, his invasion forces will have to use the slower to unload xAPs and xAKs for the invasions. Or use the slower to move LSTs and other landing craft which can give you more time to react and prepare to greet those forces. Those ships are vulnerable and CAP from 1 hex away may not give a good enough coverage. So the response to that would be to have CVEs at the invasion hex but those are also vulnerable.

That written, if you have some very good bomber pilots with the proper skills and especially torpedo bomber pilots, you can try night attacks against his CVs. Even with patrol bombers carrying torpedoes helping to increase your odds. The enemy AAA is halved at night and if he doesn't have any night fighters up, then he could be in trouble. I have not tried using night fighters on naval attack at night but if they drop any bombs that they are carrying when they are attacked, they will simply be night fighters.

[PaxMondo]

My strategy is all about delay, so we stand and fight.

At Singers, yes.

The rest of IndoChina ... well, there's hundreds of AAR's to tell you what happens if you stay and try to fight. Unless your opponent decides to be methodical, which he may. I don't know szmike that well, I mean I've seen him in the forums, but haven't really conversed with him much. You are in a better position for that judgement.

[PaxMondo]

... That written, if you have some very good bomber pilots with the proper skills and especially torpedo bomber pilots, you can try night attacks against his CVs. ...

I've had some success with night bombing, but you need VERY high EXP pilots* and top leaders. Even then you just don't get enough hits. Some, sure, but you'd have to have 100's of night bombers to get the 20 - 30 CV hits you need to dissuade a landing, and having 100's of VERY high EXP NAV pilots? Well, maybe, but I've never had them.


* over 70 EXP for sure, and the closer to 80 the better. Also the same on the skill ... so you're looking for ~300 +75/75 pilots.

[RangerJoe]

... That written, if you have some very good bomber pilots with the proper skills and especially torpedo bomber pilots, you can try night attacks against his CVs. ...

I've had some success with night bombing, but you need VERY high EXP pilots* and top leaders. Even then you just don't get enough hits. Some, sure, but you'd have to have 100's of night bombers to get the 20 - 30 CV hits you need to dissuade a landing, and having 100's of VERY high EXP NAV pilots? Well, maybe, but I've never had them.


* over 70 EXP for sure, and the closer to 80 the better. Also the same on the skill ... so you're looking for ~300 +75/75 pilots.

The idea is to slow the enemy down, you might get lucky with fuel and ammo explosions, but even more important would be if any CV TF and/or escort TF ends up leaving without orders due to damage whereupon the Japanese wolves and eagles can then have some fun.

Then again, if those very good pilots don't fly at night but do fly during the day, what are their changes against the enemy CAP? Especially if the raid is fragmented? Although there may be ways to get the CAP out of position.

[PaxMondo]

The idea is to slow the enemy down ...

Then again, if those very good pilots don't fly at night but do fly during the day, what are their changes against the enemy CAP? Especially if the raid is fragmented? Although there may be ways to get the CAP out of position.

RJ,

All good points, and frankly I don't have answers. I haven't looked at this in years. Against the AI, there is no DeathStar, it is just attrition ... I don't face 2 or 3 massive CV combats in the game, but rather 6 - 10 CV combats each Year, so in a 4 year game, 20 - 40+ CV combats ... lotsa opportunity for GG's randomness to set in and lose my CV's in countless ways.

But reading the AAR's, I haven't seen a solution. Yes, sometimes the IJ gets "lucky", but it simply is rare. All of your suggestions are good, but in the AAR's written thus far none of these tactics have been able to produce repeatable results. Maybe there are execution flaws, I can't tell from the AAR, but the lack of success is apparent.

From my testing, many years ago, but ... here you go in summary form.
(My definition of "take Down" is damage (min 75 float+eng) or sink 40% of the ships in the task force.)
(Testing location was East of PI assuming that the allies were trying to land at Naga on South end of Luzon)
(Testing Timing: DDay in all cases)

Kami's. I assembled over 1200 kami's with 600 Frank/Sam fighters and 400 LB's (Frances) for the 2nd round attacks against 4/44 Scen 1 USN DeathStar. After several failures, I worked out a plan that would 60% of the time take down the DeathStar and the USN Amphib fleet. Losses: ~1800 AC for IJ.

KB. 6/44 The full KB sails against the DeathStar. A7M has been researched as has the D4Y4 and B6N4. +400 Frank and 400 Peggy(T). KB arrives from the West. Alpha strike in concert with the Frank/Peggy. The land and naval air strikes are never going to coordinate into a single strike, but with good leadership all around you can avoid fragments (see any of Herb's AARs on how to do this, he was the best ever at it). This too was successful on over 60% of the tests. IJ losses: ~1000 AC and most of the KB.

In both cases, I found starting night strikes to be important, not only because they could get some hits, but the allies expended a fair amount of their AA. It made a BIG difference in the day strikes. The 2nd attack always faced a lot less AA .... (this is how I generally use those high skill Torp pilots ...note that the Day1 attack on the Repulse, the devs also use night attacks to start the ball rolling. I got the idea from them ...)

These were setups in a testing sandbox. In a real game, it is immensely difficult to assemble 2000 AC into a location with all the appropriate support (base, HQa, etc etc etc). And the 2nd test requires you to have +2000 GOOD pilots ... again, tough to have that. And then you need to have the right location where you have enough AF's in range, etc, etc, etc.

Thus in a real game, as we see in the countless AAR's, the DeathStar is effectively unstoppable.

[BBfanboy]

I think the best benefit of night strikes is the increase in DL that sets up a morning strike instead of searching in the AM for a strike in the afternoon.

[RangerJoe]

I think the best benefit of night strikes is the increase in DL that sets up a morning strike instead of searching in the AM for a strike in the afternoon.

That can be so very true. So many people don't seem to do night naval searches. I do suggest doing that, especially where there can be a lot of enemy activity including enemy submarines.

[RangerJoe]

The idea is to slow the enemy down ...

Then again, if those very good pilots don't fly at night but do fly during the day, what are their changes against the enemy CAP? Especially if the raid is fragmented? Although there may be ways to get the CAP out of position.

RJ,

All good points, and frankly I don't have answers. I haven't looked at this in years. Against the AI, there is no DeathStar, it is just attrition ... I don't face 2 or 3 massive CV combats in the game, but rather 6 - 10 CV combats each Year, so in a 4 year game, 20 - 40+ CV combats ... lotsa opportunity for GG's randomness to set in and lose my CV's in countless ways.

But reading the AAR's, I haven't seen a solution. Yes, sometimes the IJ gets "lucky", but it simply is rare. All of your suggestions are good, but in the AAR's written thus far none of these tactics have been able to produce repeatable results. Maybe there are execution flaws, I can't tell from the AAR, but the lack of success is apparent.

From my testing, many years ago, but ... here you go in summary form.
(My definition of "take Down" is damage (min 75 float+eng) or sink 40% of the ships in the task force.)
(Testing location was East of PI assuming that the allies were trying to land at Naga on South end of Luzon)
(Testing Timing: DDay in all cases)

Kami's. I assembled over 1200 kami's with 600 Frank/Sam fighters and 400 LB's (Frances) for the 2nd round attacks against 4/44 Scen 1 USN DeathStar. After several failures, I worked out a plan that would 60% of the time take down the DeathStar and the USN Amphib fleet. Losses: ~1800 AC for IJ.

KB. 6/44 The full KB sails against the DeathStar. A7M has been researched as has the D4Y4 and B6N4. +400 Frank and 400 Peggy(T). KB arrives from the West. Alpha strike in concert with the Frank/Peggy. The land and naval air strikes are never going to coordinate into a single strike, but with good leadership all around you can avoid fragments (see any of Herb's AARs on how to do this, he was the best ever at it). This too was successful on over 60% of the tests. IJ losses: ~1000 AC and most of the KB.

In both cases, I found starting night strikes to be important, not only because they could get some hits, but the allies expended a fair amount of their AA. It made a BIG difference in the day strikes. The 2nd attack always faced a lot less AA .... (this is how I generally use those high skill Torp pilots ...note that the Day1 attack on the Repulse, the devs also use night attacks to start the ball rolling. I got the idea from them ...)

These were setups in a testing sandbox. In a real game, it is immensely difficult to assemble 2000 AC into a location with all the appropriate support (base, HQa, etc etc etc). And the 2nd test requires you to have +2000 GOOD pilots ... again, tough to have that. And then you need to have the right location where you have enough AF's in range, etc, etc, etc.

Thus in a real game, as we see in the countless AAR's, the DeathStar is effectively unstoppable.

It all boils down to luck and Gary's die rolls.

But there is a way to get some units to launch first.

Another thing that might help in regards to multiple day invasions is to sweep the invasion hex in order to whittle down the enemy CAP as well as cause fatigue for both the pilots and the fighters.

There might even be a way to reduce the amount of enemy carrier strikes in return but a player would have to be lucky as well.

[Captain Cruft]

27 Dec 1943

Truk gets pounded for another 3 days. It has been rendered useless.

I didn't realise before plotting this turn, but you can bombard Johore Bharu from Singapore.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Johore Bahru at 50,83

Japanese Ships
CL Kinu
CL Natori
CL Isuzu
DD Oboro
DD Shikinami
DD Shirayuki
DD Isonami
DD Usugumo
DD Ikazuchi

Allied ground losses:
67 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 10
Port supply hits 2

CL Kinu firing at 5th Indian Division
CL Natori firing at 11th (East African) Division
DD Oboro firing at 70th British Division
DD Usugumo firing at 9th Australian Division

So there are 4 divisions there. We look forward to welcoming them across the river soon

I also did a cheeky bombardment of Malacca with quite pleasing results.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Malacca at 49,81

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 27 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 4 destroyed on ground
P-66 Vanguard: 16 damaged
P-66 Vanguard: 5 destroyed on ground
Beaufighter VIf: 25 damaged
Beaufighter VIf: 3 destroyed on ground
I-16-III: 5 damaged
I-16-III: 1 destroyed on ground

Japanese Ships
CL Tatsuta
DD Hayate
DD Hatakaze
DD Matsukaze
DD Harukaze
DD Asakaze
E Sagi
E Hato
E Hayabusa
E Hiyodori

Allied Ships
DE Hotspur, Shell hits 1

Allied ground losses:
79 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Airbase hits 48
Airbase supply hits 25
Runway hits 113
Port hits 2
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1

[Captain Cruft]

Also, while I appreciate the attention could we please keep the discussion to this game in progress.

Thank you.

[PaxMondo]

Another thing that might help in regards to multiple day invasions is to sweep the invasion hex in order to whittle down the enemy CAP as well as cause fatigue for both the pilots and the fighters.

Never had any success of sweeping a base under the DeathStar umbrella. There are really just two potential outcomes:

1. The allies blow there Amphib CAP and you only find 4 F6F's waiting for you which you shoot down changing nothing. Unless the allied player is an idiot, he will fix his CAP for the 2nd day when you try to send your bombers. If you don't send your bombers, he is leaving on the 3rd day ... unless he messed up his loading.

2. Each of your 36 - 48 sweepers finds the DeathStar CAP, which unlike LBA CAP is not segmented by groups, but by TF. So your 36-48 sweepers finds +100 F6F's and you get cremated. Literally. You send 10 groups, but by the 5th group, the F6F's may no longer be flying. Because of the odds, you lose ~80 of your fighters to about 25 of his F6F's. Day 2, he is still able to mount easily another 100 F6F's ... Worse for you is if his F6F's replenish (they can) and he meets ALL 10 groups. Your losses continue ... worse for you.

If you attack the Amphib base site, you can relatively easily penetrate and get to his troops. 1000 planes (50/50 F/LB) will get through and do serious damage, and if you have a reaction force you can bounce those amphib assault units back into the water. The DeathStar ability to stop this is limited and worse for them, susceptible to GG randomness.

This is what I always now recommend. I don't know how to hit the DeathStar with good chances of success that are realistic. Assembling +2000 planes (40 - 60 airgroups) on short notice is very difficult. Assembling 1000 planes (20 - 30 groups) to hit the amphib LCU's on the ground is MUCH easier. Expect to lose +500 planes in this, but only about 100 pilots (fighting over your base!) + 100 WIA. The allies lose several, almost irreplaceable LCU's. Take him months to rebuild them, and then they will be low EXP, in the 40's, not the 70's you killed. Remember, though, you must have a reaction force: 6 - 10 ID's along with ARM and ARTY. What do the allies typically bring? 2 -3 ID's + ARM + ARTY.

[RangerJoe]

Another thing that might help in regards to multiple day invasions is to sweep the invasion hex in order to whittle down the enemy CAP as well as cause fatigue for both the pilots and the fighters.

Never had any success of sweeping a base under the DeathStar umbrella. There are really just two potential outcomes:

1. The allies blow there Amphib CAP and you only find 4 F6F's waiting for you which you shoot down changing nothing. Unless the allied player is an idiot, he will fix his CAP for the 2nd day when you try to send your bombers. If you don't send your bombers, he is leaving on the 3rd day ... unless he messed up his loading.

2. Each of your 36 - 48 sweepers finds the DeathStar CAP, which unlike LBA CAP is not segmented by groups, but by TF. So your 36-48 sweepers finds +100 F6F's and you get cremated. Literally. You send 10 groups, but by the 5th group, the F6F's may no longer be flying. Because of the odds, you lose ~80 of your fighters to about 25 of his F6F's. Day 2, he is still able to mount easily another 100 F6F's ... Worse for you is if his F6F's replenish (they can) and he meets ALL 10 groups. Your losses continue ... worse for you.

If you attack the Amphib base site, you can relatively easily penetrate and get to his troops. 1000 planes (50/50 F/LB) will get through and do serious damage, and if you have a reaction force you can bounce those amphib assault units back into the water. The DeathStar ability to stop this is limited and worse for them, susceptible to GG randomness.

This is what I always now recommend. I don't know how to hit the DeathStar with good chances of success that are realistic. Assembling +2000 planes (40 - 60 airgroups) on short notice is very difficult. Assembling 1000 planes (20 - 30 groups) to hit the amphib LCU's on the ground is MUCH easier. Expect to lose +500 planes in this, but only about 100 pilots (fighting over your base!) + 100 WIA. The allies lose several, almost irreplaceable LCU's. Take him months to rebuild them, and then they will be low EXP, in the 40's, not the 70's you killed. Remember, though, you must have a reaction force: 6 - 10 ID's along with ARM and ARTY. What do the allies typically bring? 2 -3 ID's + ARM + ARTY.

If a player were to sweep first and then have the bombers attack on the same turn after the CAP is worn out, then there is a better chance for the bombers to do a lot of damage to the enemy shipping. For the bomber pilots who don't have the naval attack skills, those pilots can bomb the enemy Land Combat Units. Meanwhile, your available transport aircraft are bringing in parts of more LCUs, first for defence and then for the counterattack - if they are still there!

[PaxMondo]

If a player were to sweep first and then have the bombers attack on the same turn after the CAP is worn out, then there is a better chance for the bombers to do a lot of damage to the enemy shipping. For the bomber pilots who don't have the naval attack skills, those pilots can bomb the enemy Land Combat Units. Meanwhile, your available transport aircraft are bringing in parts of more LCUs, first for defence and then for the counterattack - if they are still there!

Agreed, but how do you do that? You can only expect to have 3 turns and at best you spot them 2 turns away, so 5 turns total ... and remember, the DeathStar CAP is TF sized, not group sized. So you have to have +1000 fighters and then +1000 bombers. Can you? HAVE you ever been able to assemble +70 air groups in less than 3 turns WITH all their supporting staff (ENG/HQ)? And remember that bombers will not attack on the same turn that they move ....

I have, but only in a sandbox with it all setup in advance. In an ongoing game? Never. Not even close. And in what, +15 years of AAR's have we seen a successful attack against the DeathStar? Once? Twice? Out of hundreds of AAR's ... and I cannot even recall either of those events specifically, so has it actually ever happened?

[Captain Cruft]

Guys

Can you take it elsewhere please? I am reluctant to carry on with this AAR if it's just going to be a general tactics discussion.

[PaxMondo]

Guys

Can you take it elsewhere please? I am reluctant to carry on with this AAR if it's just going to be a general tactics discussion.

Sorry CC ... done.

[PaxMondo]

27 Dec 1943


I didn't realise before plotting this turn, but you can bombard Johore Bharu from Singapore.

You can, but I think like Saigon there's a limit to how big a ship will fit ... it's been a LONG time since I did a JB sea bombardment, but I've had my opponent inflict that upon me several times ....

[RangerJoe]

27 Dec 1943


I didn't realise before plotting this turn, but you can bombard Johore Bharu from Singapore.

You can, but I think like Saigon there's a limit to how big a ship will fit ... it's been a LONG time since I did a JB sea bombardment, but I've had my opponent inflict that upon me several times ....

I don't believe that it is a river so any sized ship should be able to go there.