Need Recon Help

[Rune Iversen]

Originally posted by Grumble:
Vejgaard, congratulations on NCO. Where/when's the promotion party? I drink Tuborg BTW...

All, this is probably one of the best, if not THE best posts on SPWAW tactics/weapons I've seen in the two + years I've been on this forum.
Kudos to all for explaining the "why" behind recon tactics instead of just "how to".
I look forward to Vejgaard's insights in the new tactics manual. Another excellent work...

---

Thank you very much

I will graduate NCO school at the end of november, and will be assigned a command as soon as one is available (until then i will just have to contend myself with commanding a desk <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> .

As for the graduation party, it will be held at a house on the outskirts of our exercise area to the north of Copenhagen, on the third of december.
There is this huge pond outside, where it is customary that the privates throw in the newly appointed NCO/officers in order to "baptize" them, so I guess I will have to bring along a change of clothes <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> .
All former and current member of any armed force around the world are welcome, as long as they contact me in advance <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Rune Iversen]

Originally posted by swagman:

What am I getting to? Basically I don't think SPWAW is able to adequately model tactical or battlefield recon, just because the map isn't large enough to support it. My recon units therefore become the sacrifical lambs...cheap units which are usually lost when they draw down fire (in the open, motorcycle and cavalry which have the greatest survivability since they can take the most casualties; scout teams in close terrain where they can hide)...with the armour serving as the mobile reserve to protect rear area artillery and clean up loose infantry units breaking through my main lines.

To create an effective recon scenario, I would say a 240X120 would have to be used with custom map with point-per-turn VH's and a strict rules on force make-up.

---

My dear Swagman (isn´t a swagman an australian vagabond/tramp <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ) I have never suggested that recon should be an end in itself, neither have I put up criterias for what you MUST do, rather I have attempted to provide a set of guidelines.

At best, your recon efforts will still only be supplementary, and nobodt has said that you have to spend every buy-point available on recon, in fact if you feel comfortable with just a couple of units providing information and screening, then by all means do so.

Also by the way I have read your posts, you do utilize recon assets (that they are also getting killed is another matter, but it goes with the job), notably cavalry and scout teams. As I have said before, it doesn´t matter what kind of recon you utilize as long as is effective. Also the number and/or price of your recon assets doesn´t matter one jot as long as they get the job done effectively.

Furthermore, tactical battlefield recon has quite a high place in my book, especially if I have no clue to what the enemy has or what im up against.

I can follow your argument about how your recon assets might have problems penetrating the enemy frontline, but in my opinion this is quite dependent upon the type of scenario being played. For example you mention AT-guns and HMG´s dominating the map, making proper recon impossible, well these units will only dominate if you allow them to, or if the opponent has emplaced them beforehand (ie. he is defending, youre attacking him), and I will grant you that if you have an approximate location of where the enemy is defending against your attack, then dedicating recon against them might be a moot thing, since they will be emplaced and waiting for you. On the other hand, just using around a 100 points will in most armies buy you three light wheeled vehicles plus 3-4 two man scout teams, which will give you very cheap recon, so that you can have more buy points for your main fighting units. In a meeting engagement, even a modest recon screen, emplaced quickly at key points, will at least give you an idea of what your opponent have and is capable of.

Furthermore, by sacrificing themselves and drawing fire (a msiuse of them though it may be) your precious tanks infantry and halftracks are at least unscathed, and you will have a better picture of what is going on.

So to cap it off:
Swagman, while the engine of SPWaW does not lend itself well to operational recon (the kind of recon that you are thinking about, that takes place before the battle, which is usually done by independent corps/divisional level recon units) tactical recon DO have a place in a normal SPWaW battle, so even if your recon has a tendency to die, I would claim that as long as they can provide you with the information you need, they will not have died in vain.

[Larry Holt]

Originally posted by swagman:
Many scout AFV's can carry 2-4 infantry, which is fine for a scout team or two...rather than dismounting the crew simply unload the team.

---

[/b]
Or use a half-track, jeep or other unit that can internally load the scouts.

...the unit density on the map is still too high to allow for effective tactical reconnaisance as described here. If the visibility is 15 hexes or higher, well placed AT-guns and mg's can create cross fires that cover most of the map...and I'd expect to run our of scout vehicles before I found a weakness in the defence to exploit.

In a 6000 point battle, in which losses within a balanced scout force can be afforded, on a large map the enemy unit density if so high that he can maintain virtually a solid defense line ...the only place they can't is on a 240X120 map...but it is a rare PBEM game that ventures there.

In addition, the map depth is 120 hexes constrains once ability to manouvre in depth in preparation for an attack...that is unless vis is set to less than 20 hexes...rear area manouvres called for by effective reconnaissance could be observed by the opponent and so lose surprise...isn't the purpose or recon to identify the weak points that can be exploited?

Additionally, isn't tactical reconnaissance achieved before well ahead of an attack and used to achieve where the attack will go ahead...that is it occurs before the battle in SPWAW.

Thus SPWAW really portrays battlefield reconnaissance. In a "real world" situation there aren't enough units to position something every 50 metres (which is the case in a common SPWAW force 120 unit force). If such a density had been observed (as it certainly woud before a battle) reconnaisance probes would be used on either side of it...that is off the SPWAW map.

What am I getting to? Basically I don't think SPWAW is able to adequately model tactical or battlefield recon, just because the map isn't large enough to support it. My recon units therefore become the sacrifical lambs...cheap units which are usually lost when they draw down fire (in the open, motorcycle and cavalry which have the greatest survivability since they can take the most casualties; scout teams in close terrain where they can hide)...with the armour serving as the mobile reserve to protect rear area artillery and clean up loose infantry units breaking through my main lines.
...

---

Yes, you've got it. IRL, recon would go out and find the enemy. In the game, you know that they are just beyond the set up line, near the VHs, etc. The maps just are not big enough to simulate this. (BTW, I am working on a scenario with a BIG map where you don't know where they are and they are not every hundred meters but its going slow).

In my tactics guide I suggest that once you make contact with the enemy, its time to evaluate if your recon can fight through or pull back. For example, German ACs with 20mm guns can effectively take on Soviet BT-7s but certainly not T-34's (unless you are willing to accept lots of burning ACs for maybe a mobility kill or two). Smoke firing tanks also are useful to provide concealment and covering fire for recon to withdraw behind.

IRL there was a saying that recon goes where the water flows. That is recon would infiltrate in covering terrain then observe for movement in enemy rear areas. They do not move out in the open to draw fire as most of us use them for. In the game there is not the kind of rear area movement that real armies have (parts & food being brought up, troops moving back for sick call, etc.) so this does not work well.

We can only ask and hope that Matrix will provide a means for the largest maps to be used in generated campaign battles. I end up editing mine make them large size and to added in the missing terrain features.

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Larry Holt ]</p>

[challenge]

I'd like to thank all for the commentary above. I had just about decided that the scout and recon units were cannon fodder at best and worthless at the worst. Now that I have read other methodologies, and the limits of the game parameters, I might better use them. I have found moving recon units past the front lines of the enemy problematic at best -- now that I understand I am thinking of the advance elements of larger scale operations, and not the tactical level of the unit front I'm engaging, I can rethink the problem for a better overall solution.

Tanks. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Challenge ]</p>

[Warhorse]

My current Hungarian campaign is a total recon unit!! The 9th Armored Recon Bn, and is THAT challenging! Two scenarios were decisive wins, (1 defense, 1 advance), but this one(advance), I simulated them probing a huge armored/infantry unit, and am getting a bloody nose. I had to level a bridge, just to halt the enemy tanks pouring across, and now am having to go purely defensive, jus to hold the few objectives I DO hold. The MCU support units are hard pressed to hold the gains, but it is great fun, instead of crossing the other bridge with my other wing, I will guard the bridge with an infantry platoon, and send thos fellows down south to try an repell the onslaught. Early '41, so my poor Ansaldo's, and Toldi tanks are hard pressed, even agains the BT series!!

[Frank W.]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Challenge:
[QB]I'd like to thank all for the commentary above. I had just about decided that the scout and recon units were cannon fodder at best and worthless at the worst


that´s excatly what my thoughts were some time ago. but it´s completly wrong. recon is one of the main aspects of the game (and use of combined arms...). in SP1 i used mostly tanks at masses with few infantry. this doens´t work anymore with SPWAW 6.xxx. esp. when playing against human opponets this comes true. see him if he doesn´t spot you, is almost half winning the game....

it´s very important,too to have unsupressed recon units, even one few supression point can make the difference from spot him or not. okay,you will know this already i think. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[challenge]

As an old player of ASL and other TBS games, I was prone to sending out a single unit, a "half squad" or smallest unit available to the mechanics of the game to scout out enemy positions before sending the main group in.

I think I just need to slow down the advances in SPWAW even more than I am used to from the other games played. I keep getting my advanced elements pinned down and cut off from relief units and watch in frustration and irritation as they get chewed to pieces without ever getting beyond the first line of enemy positions.

I've restarted the campaign (WWII) and plan to recalibrate my timing to match the new parameters. Perhaps this will give my recon units a longer life expectancy.

I've noticed a lot of historical commentary -- which I like, by the way -- and general discussion on this board. However, I've seen little about game-specific methodology and game engine derived limitations. This post thread had both general RL concepts and game-specific consequences to recon ops, which makes it very helpfull.

[Larry Holt]

This discussion has focused and given a lot of good advice concerning recon in the advance.

Do not forget that it is also useful in a static situation! I like to put a 2 man scout team on a hilltop, wood line or in a building where they can observe an avenue of advance into my positions. Then, behind them and safely hidden are a transport and something for fire support to help extract them if needed. This could be a halftrack with a high firing rate AA gun, an ATG, etc. Something just big enough to scare off advancing infantry or recon tanks and vehicles.

[challenge]

My current situation reflects that. The mission is presented as an Advance. However, the briefing says the enemy is counter attacking and my job is to stop them. There is no defined start lines and I can position units any where on the map -- and I assume the Poles can do the same.

This presents a challenge in that not only do I need to set up defensive positions to control the objective squares, but need to establish reserves and on-board artillery positions with defensive screens since they could easily find the enemy within a few hundred yards at the start of the battle.

Recon is going to be very important just to know where, when and how to get the fire support over to threatened positions quickly with a minimum of resistance from emplaced and intermingled enemy positions.

[Frank W.]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Challenge:
[QB]My current situation reflects that. The mission is presented as an Advance. However, the briefing says the enemy is counter attacking and my job is to stop them. There is no defined start lines and I can position units any where on the map -- and I assume the Poles can do the same.


these counterattack missions are quite simple to solve: they are just a delay mission for you. this means set up some static defences in good terrain as AT guns,mg´s and inf. keep your core force tanks behind and let them come to you.

your mission is now to find out where goes the main strike of your enemy. where the recon topic comes into play again.... so destroy as much of the attacking forces with your setup defenses before your let your core counterstrike force loose. the best is not to split the force into much small groups keep it together and advance carefully in a flank of the remaining troops of your oponent....

if u do it right u should be able do defend your vic hexes and then when the enemy attack is breached up take as much as possible of his positions. but be careful AI usually sets up some defences near it´s vic hexes,too.

good idea to blindly let some arty shells rain in the area of the vic hexes if u have enough ammo and guns.

good hunting! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

[Nixk]

This one is a great subject, I must add my observations on recon to this.
I find that when playing the AI recon is very hard, more like the enemy units are cloaked or outright invisible.
For instance, yesterday I'm playing a hypothetical scenario German vs Japan, using the Dieppe map, Viz of 11 hexes, at noon, clear day.
My German force includes Scouts, an armored Recon force (1 Puma, one light tank) an infantry company augmented with ss units (all mechanized), engineers (mech).
Recon goes out leapfrogging all the way. Bring up the two PkwIV's with infantry support a little ways behind them, left flank, engineers with Panther G support and Flammawaggen (2), and Brumbaurs (2), left flank a platoon with the boss and mortar support.
Grief, the recon goes out stops, scouts go up the road into town, stop take a look around and see nothing.
Well you can guess what happens next. One hex away, a Japanese platoon in the middle of the road opens up and slaughters my scout squad. On the left, two hexes away, two heavy machinguns plus infantry in open terrain debouch on a halftrack after it too took a good look around.
The rest of the battle went like this every round. Move up, nothing sighted, next turn infantry, or guns one to three hexes away in clear ground or trees opening up nailing more units. I even had a tank roll right through a road hex to an objective, and the next turn there was a mortar firing from the same spot, invisible despite all of the havoc he was causing, and still no one could make it appear.
Seems to me that the tactic of leapfrogging is good, but I think the visability computations are slightly out of whack.
Yes, Japanese troops were good at concielment, but this happens a lot to any country played by the AI.
Recon units: I would think those chaps would be profficent at their task and not 'cannon fodder on the fly' so to speak. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Incidently, I took so many casualties from missed units that I had to surrender. Tough AI, but with the force I had, it should have been defeated or at best a draw IMHO.
Any feedback or suggestions would be hightly appreciated from this grognard... <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

[challenge]

Frank W.: My basic plan was to hold the center ( a small village) with a Mot Inf Co with its 75 How and 88 ATGs on nearby hills with overlapped fiels of fire. Then I would tuck the on-boards 81 mtrs with another Mot Inf plt as pickets and the rest of the Inf company and its support guns overlooking another group of vic hexs (first set near village). This will leave me with an Eng Plt, a Recon Plt (armored cars), and a couple of FOs and Snipers to fill in between and move around as locators. Back up is a Med Panzer Co.

Since the map fills the lower corner map box, there's a lot of in between!

NixK: I haven't run over a unit without seeing it yet, but I have been unable to see an AT gun (37) firing multiple rounds at point blank range from open terrain before. Most unnerving.

[lnp4668]

Nixk, what is the experience and moral level?

[Tombstone]

The way to keep your mobile recon units alive is to have a lot of forces concentrated close behind the recon screen. Something like half of your mobile unit's movement rate behind. If you're rooting out infantry usually you can creep forward one hex at a time and once you're two hexes away you'll spot them. If there are tanks or AT gun usually you'll get shot at, hopefully they miss you at which point that car has to stop moving for the time being. If you're expecting major resistance there's likely to be more than one of whatever is trying to kill you and the added bonus that although they waited till now to shoot they're gonna fire away until you escape los/range. To be continued...

Tomo

[Larry Holt]

I have rolled through a hex (but not a road hex) and not seen units there.

Another purpose of recon is flank security. Example: My recon sees a large enemy force approaching from the East. I would like to maneuver my tanks against its flankin an enveloping maneuver, that is move East then turn to face North. This however causes me to expose the Eastern flank of my tank force to any follow on enemy forces. To protect against them falling on my flank, I put some recon units East of my envelopment force to provide early warning of any approaching forces.

[swagman]

Yes, a swagman is an Australian tramp...and isn't that what a infantry does...tramp, tramp, tramp...

I am still learning recon...in this game it seems we never stop learning.

I find that fast-moving recon (motorcycles and AC's) lose their spotting value...they end up being fire attracters and if I have sufficient other recon units in the vicinity they can usually spot the firing unit after a couple of shots...that is when the position of my main force is critical...in advance I try to keep them concealed or behind smoke...once I spot the firing units I move my heavy armour to a firing line and take sufficient shots to suppress the offending unit, then move fast moving units close enough to get a kill rating that will cause a retreat, once the enemy gun crew/infantry retreat, it loses its fortification bonus and I can plaster it.

If the enemy unit is armour, I will bring up infantry via cover to fire at the tank...I may lost a few men but the tanks op-fire ability is significantly reduced, and it gets a little suppression...that's when I bring up my tanks to start firing on the enemy tank...first one (bang there is a wasted op-fire), then a second (bang another op-fire). If my first tank fired immediately after my opponents I assume my opponent would get an accuracy bonus from two consecutive shots at the same unit...the op-fire at the second tank prevents this. If the first tank has survived it is then that I fire, then I fire my second tank (or third if one of the earlier ones has been knocked out)...the end result is that I am able to fire with an accuracy rating similar to my opponent and have a better hit rate (meaning my units survivability increases...alternatively my opponents unit runs out of op-fire shots and I can bring up more tanks at liesure to take him out...

This tactic is great for the survivability of my core force, but means my elite recon units do suffer cruel and bloody wastage.

I have just started using them in defense... although purchase points is always an issue... if I have enough I place them with an almost overlapping field of view...letting me know if an attack is coming from a direction I haven't covered. In combination with this, I place the artillery designations that are assigned in deployment so I have possible attack routes covered. Should my recon spot enemy group advancing, I can assign artillery with a 0.1 delay , which means the barrage hits before my opponent can move.

The result is that the attacking force cohesion is broken, depending on the size of the artillery, with units suffering a reduction in movement, as well as some units being left behind (with the whole force the having to wait for them to catch up). Even if my opponent does move, it often isn't enough to get away from the artillery. By reassigning the barrage to the same hex, it can then be crept forward over the enemy units...with a delay that still allows it to occur before my opponents next move.

The other trick with artillery particularly in defense, is to assign it in anticipation of enemy movement with a delay greater than 1. For example, I will assign my artillery between the pre-designated firepoints. With a delay greater than 1 they won't fire and waste ammo. If no enemy units appear, I can simply creep the barrage so the delay is back over 1 and then wait another turn...this saves we using an order.

The net result is that with 3 batteries and five pre-designated fire points (when a creep of 2 hexes is used and the fall distribution of up to another 4 hexes) one can cover most of the map-width with a line of artillery that will fall with a delay of 0.3 or less.

Net result is the handful of scouts and your artillery can disorganise the enemy attack and buy the defender enough time to set up or move a defense line.

[Rune Iversen]

Originally posted by Nixk:
.....The recon goes out stops, scouts go up the road into town, stop take a look around and see nothing.
Well you can guess what happens next. One hex away, a Japanese platoon in the middle of the road opens up and slaughters my scout squad. On the left, two hexes away, two heavy machinguns plus infantry in open terrain debouch on a halftrack after it too took a good look around.
The rest of the battle went like this every round. ....Yes, Japanese troops were good at concielment, but this happens a lot to any country played by the AI.
Recon units: I would think those chaps would be profficent at their task and not 'cannon fodder on the fly' so to speak. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Incidently, I took so many casualties from missed units that I had to surrender. Tough AI, but with the force I had, it should have been defeated or at best a draw IMHO.
Any feedback or suggestions would be hightly appreciated from this grognard... <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

---

Hmm... a tough one.
I really don´t know how to help you here. On one hand you have chosen an opponent that has an intrinsic bonus to "hiding" and on the other you seem to have chosen a balanced and capable force.
You are not really providing very much information about the nature of your problem (apart from the fact that you are getting slaughtered <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> )
What I can do is give you some pointers to help you figure how to spot more effectively. Your units are most efficient at spotting enemies when they are not moving very fast, if they are infantry and if they have the special "recon/elite recon" ability. The enemy makes it harder for you to spot him if he is in difficult terrain and if he is standing still.

What seems to have happened here, is that your vehicles/infantry has been moving too fast and your enemy has stood still and hidden himself in the terrain, making it hard for you to spot him.
My suggestion is that you try a more methodical approach, and conduct a proper recon on foot, with small 2-4 man teams moving cautiously forward at one hex per turn (if time allows),giving you a better cahnce of spotting him, without him seeing you. Otherwise I can only advise you to try to be a bit slower, since it seems that you have perhaps rushed the issue a bit <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[kurtbj]

Great thread!

I never used to pay much attention to recon units when playing against the AI, the games always seemed short enough that recon wasn't really possible in the time allocated (maybe 15 turns etc). Recently I play a lot of Online games a aginst a friend and Recon is so important. We play longer games of maybe 30 turns so we have time to use recon and observe enemy movements and reply accordingly. The player with better information on enemy troop movements has the upper hand!

I also like to use odd snipers or 2 man scout teams to sit on flanks or some rear areas to spot any flanking attempts or infiltrations by guerilla forces.

[Frank W.]

Originally posted by Challenge:
Frank W.: My basic plan was to hold the center .......etc etc...

why not trying your plan and then tell us how it worked. my policy is mostly based on concentration. and i mostly concentrate my forces west or east of the map,so that my favourite flanking manouver (spelling??) is easier to perform. remember: tanks have usually weaker armor on the sides....
but all these choices depent very much on the terrain of the map,that´s clear.

of course it´s a good idea to give the 88 overlooking positions,providing them with inf. protection....

NixK: I haven't run over a unit without seeing it yet, but I have been unable to see an AT gun (37) firing multiple rounds at point blank range from open terrain before. Most unnerving.

---

that´s quite usual,as 37mm AT have size 0. and when your units are in move they spot even fewer. i suggest let them pause 1 turn and take a look again. buttoned tanks on the move are very bad at spotting.

[Nixk]

I was moving an average of three to five hexes, that was until the Ho-III's decided to spur on my advance. As for experience, a mixed bag of Vets with some rookies (I guess, no experience).
Recon stands not a chance, but I did find the best thing to spot enemy units was to dismount troops after the recon viehicle or tank had moved along. Odd, but it worked.
Played another scenario with similar units, did much better, captured all the obj's... gained a draw.
Tough the Japanese army is (Best weapon against them once detected... flamethrowers) <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">