"Dangerous Waters" has gone gold

[freeboy]

wow 570 pages I am impressed witp could have easily been twice the size it was , and although I doubt I will get this game, Battlefront makes fun/good games...

to Paul you cannot win when winning is discribed by pleasing all the clients/customers...
I saved these clients 375/month on there very small mortgage, then when their paperwork was screwy and title company wanted to make this couple, both busy proffessionals redo the closing, I tried to help by eating the cost to my company and avoiding reclosing if they paid the difference in the "corrected" closing docs, about 400.00.. they had a fit like I was trying to rip them off...
so I instructed the title company that It was ok, we would eat the whole loss and not even a thank you... Technically I should have simply said, fine, see at close, or maybe we can just void your loan and you can go somewhere else..... People are particularly narrow when they think they are "RIGHT"

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace
Considering how accurate all the sonar systems are such are to operate (as many simmers, myself included, like), a 570 page manual is a Godsend.

And I can tell god where to send it, as indicated above.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

So now we are getting complaints we are NOT trying to make money off customers by getting them to overpay for something they can get cheaper?

Talk about "can't win for losin'..."

Paul - what makes you think I am complaining? I never said in almost 4,000 post-hack posts (about 6,000, including the ones that were lost) that I wanted a printed manual or that the price was too high.

As I recently stated, a PDF manual is greatly to be preferred to a printed manual. People need to get up to speed with modern technology and recognize that giant salt and pepper shakers can take over the world ...

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

wow 570 pages I am impressed witp could have easily been twice the size it was , and although I doubt I will get this game, Battlefront makes fun/good games...

to Paul you cannot win when winning is discribed by pleasing all the clients/customers...
I saved these clients 375/month on there very small mortgage, then when their paperwork was screwy and title company wanted to make this couple, both busy proffessionals redo the closing, I tried to help by eating the cost to my company and avoiding reclosing if they paid the difference in the "corrected" closing docs, about 400.00.. they had a fit like I was trying to rip them off...
so I instructed the title company that It was ok, we would eat the whole loss and not even a thank you... Technically I should have simply said, fine, see at close, or maybe we can just void your loan and you can go somewhere else..... People are particularly narrow when they think they are "RIGHT"

Particulary narrow [8|]

Why becuase someone screwed up the paper work. So you should have told them to take their business else where, thats sounds like a good idea. Lets hope no one takes you up on your advice

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

As I recently stated, a PDF manual is greatly to be preferred to a printed manual.

PDF is your preference, not everyone may agree with you though. Battlefront certainly seem to think some of their customers would like a printed manual otherwise they wouldn't be offering one. Personally I'd like a printed manual for any game, and I wouldn't complain if the game manual was offered as an extra for a reasonable price. The think that the $10 for the Dangerous Waters is reasonable, and I doubt Battlefront are making a loss on the manual. Of course the game should also ship with a PDF for those that want that option only: I wouldn't presume to force my preference of a printed manual on everyone else, however correct my opinion.[;)]

[Hertston]

I wish I hadn't started this thread now !

That said, I might as well have my say too. I think the manual option is a huge plus. This cheap-printing option doesn't exist in the UK, and for a manual that size $10 is dirt cheap - so I went straight for the deluxe (I like reading them in the bath and on the bus too). BF are offering it as an OPTION, so there is no "overcharging" of anybody. And of course, you still get the .pdf too - it's not one or the other !

I am impressed by this service from Battlefront, and as a loyal and repeat Matrix customer would like to see them offer the same facility. I'm not having a go at them for NOT doing so, just saying what, as a customer, I would like to see.

[Bodhi]

Same here. If Matrix get sensitive and take it as a dig at them it's their loss. I'm sure many companies would be glad of feedback from their customers.

[Paul Vebber]

pasternaki - I thought it obvious I was not responding to you but to the reasoning that we should offer more printed material as a way to make money.

Given the dicussions here in the past, the notion that we do something that can be perceived as "exploiting the customer" has been the source of numerous uncomplementary dicussions.

Look at the discussion over digital download vs physical and the cost differential there. Unfortunatley providing convenience services are not universally hailed as good things, at least around here...

Its a two way street, the forum provides a discussion for customers to say what they want, and for us to say why we decide to do things a certain way. Sometimes the response makes us re-evaluate a decision, sometimes not. People complain aout patronization on company forums, and "spin" until they get a direct answer to a question they don't like. Then they seem to want patronizing and spin... That is the way these things go.

Manuals (printed, not printed, size, font, etc., etc.) have been the source of heated debate around here. You are free to chime in, but when we chime back and the answer isn't "try to please all the people all the time" that is REALITY, not "dissing the customers".

Battlefront has decided that trying to estimate the demand for manuals and pre-purchasing some number to package with the game at a 10 dollar charge is a good business decision. For them, in the case of DW, that may well be a good one. The size of manual likely plays a role also.

For smaller manuals, for games that do not have the potential penetration of a "sim" game (ie regualr wagames) - that is an unecessary risk and the odds of "guessing wrong" and either not having enough manual packages and have people complain that they can't get it and being turned off, or buying too many and being stuck with manuals we pay for but don't sell, well, why go there if you don't have too?

From our point of view, the cons outweigh the pros IN OUR SITUATION and we think print on demand the best solution for the vast majority - balancing convenience to the customer with cost outlay and risks. Battlefront is in a different situation with DW. What works for them doesn't necessarily work for us. Print on demand services are ubiquitous now, may not be a Kinkos near you, but even Mom and Pop printing outfits are doing print on demand now. Unless you are buying in lots of thousands, the economy of scale is already leveraged, except for bulk paper sales (10,000 of sheeets to make a diff).

Every possible service does not always make sense for every situation. We have been very proactive and customer responsive to ideas here. But that doesn't mean we are "overly sensitive" when we say "No that is not a good idea for us."

[Mr.Frag]

They are doing two versions, a "standard" with the manual as a .pdf at $45 or a "deluxe" with a spiral bound printed manual (570 pages!) for $55.

Funny enough, you could look at this one in reverse too ... that the manual actualy costs about $25 with shipping and handling and the price for the non-manual version is a obvious rip off attempt to hook an extra $15 out of your pocket.

I always chuckle when people take something and slant it to *their* way of thinking. Always more then one way to skin the cat.

I'm not saying that this happens to be the case, just illustrating how different folks could look at the same thing and come up with completely different results. [;)]

On the topic of PDF's vs Paper ... ever tried to do a search for something in a paper manual? While I agree that paper is nice for trips to the potty [;)] I don't see it as an either or ... I've gotten so used to being able to search through a pdf to find what I need fast that I *hate* games that do not offer one.

[freeboy]

Sarge, I am a gold glove provider, I do EVERYTHING to keep clients happy and win referals, like closing at homes and doing paperwork at poeples homes, so when they got pissed, I thanked them for their time, and asked for future business and referals.. they just where confused at the costs difference and where untrusting, and so many Jerks out there who take advantage of poeple in financial matters, I wrote a lot of paper last year, and am out now, needed a break for so many reasons, but you really WANT to tell people to f off sometimes...
so MATRIX and all, THANKS for being there, putting up with my wining about poor communications.. I am the chief fanboy of clear release dates and daily progress reports .. and not giving up when we as your c/c's are less than enthusiastic about your chioces.. they are after all your choices.. and I am glad you as a company are still growing ! LEts hope the game designers are too.. and does everyone know the difference?

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

They are doing two versions, a "standard" with the manual as a .pdf at $45 or a "deluxe" with a spiral bound printed manual (570 pages!) for $55.

Funny enough, you could look at this one in reverse too ... that the manual actualy costs about $25 with shipping and handling and the price for the non-manual version is a obvious rip off attempt to hook an extra $15 out of your pocket.

I always chuckle when people take something and slant it to *their* way of thinking. Always more then one way to skin the cat.

I'm not saying that this happens to be the case, just illustrating how different folks could look at the same thing and come up with completely different results. [;)]

Hmmm... seems to me that's not an either/or [;)] . Its determined by the value of the game (license) compared with the manual, and from what I know of DW it's very much a $45 game, not a $30 one.

On the topic of PDF's vs Paper ... ever tried to do a search for something in a paper manual?

Yup. Being nearly forty years of age I am quite accustomed to using the same search facility that my ancestors did. It's called an "index". [;)]

While I agree that paper is nice for trips to the potty [;)] I don't see it as an either or ... I've gotten so used to being able to search through a pdf to find what I need fast that I *hate* games that do not offer one.

The point has been made already, but the choice here isn't .pdf OR printed, its .pdf or .pdf AND printed. I have never seen a game that offered the first choice, its plain daft because it would need an alternative disk-set that DIDN'T include the .pdf. Why would any publisher waste money doing that?

Many games still offer printed manuals and not .pdf - that (right or wrong) is a simple anti-piracy decision.

The only other situation I can think of was when the manual was sold seperately. The only case I can recall was the superb third-party manual for LO:MAC (the documentation that came with it, including the .pdf, was a joke). That was sold as either a download or a rather nice (as in simulated leather cover, etc) printed job - but again printed purchasers could still download the .pdf (there was an "upgrade" path, too). As an aside, I think the printed manual outsold the .pdf only by about five to one, despite being considerably more expensive. Us oldies, anyway, like something we can sit down and READ. [8D]

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

Given the dicussions here in the past, the notion that we do something that can be perceived as "exploiting the customer" has been the source of numerous uncomplementary dicussions.

Fair comment

Look at the discussion over digital download vs physical and the cost differential there. Unfortunatley providing convenience services are not universally hailed as good things, at least around here...

Again point taken, but digital downloads are very welcome here.

Its a two way street, the forum provides a discussion for customers to say what they want, and for us to say why we decide to do things a certain way. Sometimes the response makes us re-evaluate a decision, sometimes not. People complain aout patronization on company forums, and "spin" until they get a direct answer to a question they don't like. Then they seem to want patronizing and spin... That is the way these things go.

Your original reply wasn't a direct answer. This is, and is appreciated.

Manuals (printed, not printed, size, font, etc., etc.) have been the source of heated debate around here. You are free to chime in, but when we chime back and the answer isn't "try to please all the people all the time" that is REALITY, not "dissing the customers".

As "dissing the customers" is a direct quote where can I find it in this thread?

Battlefront has decided that trying to estimate the demand for manuals and pre-purchasing some number to package with the game at a 10 dollar charge is a good business decision. For them, in the case of DW, that may well be a good one. The size of manual likely plays a role also.

For smaller manuals, for games that do not have the potential penetration of a "sim" game (ie regualr wagames) - that is an unecessary risk and the odds of "guessing wrong" and either not having enough manual packages and have people complain that they can't get it and being turned off, or buying too many and being stuck with manuals we pay for but don't sell, well, why go there if you don't have too?

From our point of view, the cons outweigh the pros IN OUR SITUATION and we think print on demand the best solution for the vast majority - balancing convenience to the customer with cost outlay and risks. Battlefront is in a different situation with DW. What works for them doesn't necessarily work for us. Print on demand services are ubiquitous now, may not be a Kinkos near you, but even Mom and Pop printing outfits are doing print on demand now. Unless you are buying in lots of thousands, the economy of scale is already leveraged, except for bulk paper sales (10,000 of sheeets to make a diff).

You've clearly stated Matrix's position now and the reasoning behind it. Thank you.

Every possible service does not always make sense for every situation. We have been very proactive and customer responsive to ideas here. But that doesn't mean we are "overly sensitive" when we say "No that is not a good idea for us."

Again a direct quote that wasn't in your original post. Here's your original reply, just in case you've forgotten.

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

So now we are getting complaints we are NOT trying to make money off customers by getting them to overpay for something they can get cheaper?

Talk about "can't win for losin'..."

Looking at the two, I don't see how anyone could complain about you being overly sensitive after reading the second post, However, the first post taken alone still gives that impression to me.

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Funny enough, you could look at this one in reverse too ... that the manual actualy costs about $25 with shipping and handling and the price for the non-manual version is a obvious rip off attempt to hook an extra $15 out of your pocket.

I always chuckle when people take something and slant it to *their* way of thinking. Always more then one way to skin the cat.

I'm not saying that this happens to be the case, just illustrating how different folks could look at the same thing and come up with completely different results. [;)]

I don't see the logic here. If the game will sell for $45 without a printed manual why should Battlefront subsidise each manual sold with $15 of their profit? Wouldn't it be simpler to take the Matrix approach and say "sorry no printed manual" and keep that $15 from each sale?[&:]

On the topic of PDF's vs Paper ... ever tried to do a search for something in a paper manual? While I agree that paper is nice for trips to the potty [;)] I don't see it as an either or ... I've gotten so used to being able to search through a pdf to find what I need fast that I *hate* games that do not offer one.

Well a good table of contents and index helps when searching printed output.[;)] Am I the only one that gets tired seraching a PDF document for every occurrence of a specific word? I'd agree that it's not about an either/or situation. The whole thread was started when Hertston posted how he liked the fact that Battlefront were giving the "or" option for this game.

[Tankerace]

My take on the pdf vs paper part, if the manual is in pdf, unless I print it (which I only did with the UV manual, and only because I was able to jack my technical school out of 150 pages of printer paper) I prefer the paper manual. Unless I absolutely need to know something, I never read a pdf manual. In fact, I didn't even look in the WitP manual until I had a question in the early stages of doing War Plan Orange. Now, Silent Hunter IIs manual was pretty thin (50-60 pages) but I read it cover to cover. Point is, if you want people to read the manual, you print it for them.

That's why when I get DW, Ill be getting the 570 page manual printed with it.

[freeboy]

steering this thread back on course may be like trying toi turn a BB with a paddle, but here goes...
Does anyone Have this game Yet ?[:D][:D]

[Bodhi]

It's only just "gone gold" and Battlefront are taking pre-orders at the moment ..................... with an option for a printed manual.[:D]

BTW, the main topic of this thread has been the optional printed manual.[;)]

[Tankerace]

Yeah, battlefront says they should start shipping in 2-4 weeks.

[freeboy]

Don't you hate that ;ag, why tease us.. ? anyway... forgive me thought game was out.. and they don't dr ... guess in somethings I am an impulse buyer.. ie addict

[Hartford688]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: Tankerace
Considering how accurate all the sonar systems are such are to operate (as many simmers, myself included, like), a 570 page manual is a Godsend.

And I can tell god where to send it, as indicated above.

Please redirect it to my house.

[Sono_Jamie]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Battlefront does demos, but they aren't making the game They develop and publish the CM series and TacOps, which have demos. SCS-Dangerous Waters, however, is developed by Sonalysts, and is only published by Battlefront. Sonalysts, at least in their past three titles (Sub Command, Fleet Commmand, and Jane's 688i) did not create demos. I honestly wouldn't expect one.

Hey Tankerace,

Actually we are going to put out a Demo we're just waiting to get the stock into the US and European warehouses and then send out one big press release (i.e. "DW is shipping, Demo available").

You are right though, it was really hard to try and encapsulate the whole game in a demo. But we did our best, and we hope you enjoy it.