Bocage (also hedges and walls)

[Magua]

I understand it to be the way crabbe has described.

It would sure be nice if a developer could step in here. In fact, the whole hexside thing is inadequately explained in the rules. I say this because it is not discussed in the rules, but only on the player's reference card, and there, the explanations seem more geared to experienced players.

Here's how I might address the LOS thingie.

There are two basic types of terrain, hex, and hexside. Within these two types there are two densities of terrain, blocking and degrading.

Hex terrain is any type of terrain that appears within the hex. Clear, forest, buildings, and roads are examples of hex terrain.

Hexside terrain runs along the hexside(s) of a hex. Bocage, hedges, and walls are examples of hexside terrain.

Blocking terrain is any terrain type that is substantial enough to block LOS. Buildings (hex), Bocage (hexside), and forest (hex), are examples of blocking terrain. LOS can be traced into a hex with blocking terrain, but not beyond (see 10.2 Buildings & Hills).

LOS can be traced into a hex adjacent to a hexside with blocking terrain, but not beyond. The die roll for any spotting or direct fire attempt passing through a blocking hexside is modfied based on the terrain (see Player's Reference card.) One exception is if the spotting unit is adjacent to the blocking hexside. In this case, its LOS is not blocked to adjacent or to non-adjacent hexes though, there may be spotting and direct fire modifiers (see Player's Reference card for the particular terrain type). In the case where the LOS is traced into a hex adjacent to a blocking hexside, but the LOS does not pass through the blocking hexside, the target unit is considered to be in the terrain of the hex. In other words, hexside blocking terrain only affects LOS and Direct Fire that passes through the blocked hexside.

Hexes with degrading terrain do not block LOS. The degrading terrain does, however, affect spotting ability and direct fire. This is in the form of a modifer that is subtracted from the spotter's or attacker's die roll (see Player's Reference card). LOS and Direct Fire can be traced through a maximum two hexes.

There are no hexsides classified as degrading in BoH.

Terrain affects the following:
-rally attempts,
-movement,
-spotting, and
-direct fire.


That's how I understand it, at least while banging this thing out without so much as a cup of coffee in me yet. Do you guys have anything to add?

Ya know, if the explanation for hexside terrain had been included in the rules, instead of on the Player's Reference card, and if all of the Viet Nam info was removed, the rest of the terrain effects would fit on an 8.5 x 11" sheet, making it much easier to use and handle. in fact, I think I'm going to do that.

[aknaton]

ORIGINAL: Magua
It would sure be nice if a developer could step in here. In fact, the whole hexside thing is inadequately explained in the rules. I say this because it is not discussed in the rules, but only on the player's reference card, and there, the explanations seem more geared to experienced players.

I agree with your asessment. This should have been in the rules instead. And it would have been nice to see more short examples in the rules of the various rules. The Examples of play at the end of the rules really helped me a lot in the understanding of the game, but they doesnt cover all of the common situations (even though they give us a very good feel for the flow of the game). So more short exemples explaining individual rules would have been nice. [:)]

[Hannes]

@Magua
As far as I understand it - all is correct what you say.

@aknaton
Well, wont help you then, but I am working on something what should help a little. No really timeline for this project, though.


Anyways:
I was in my comment so enthusiastic about the spotting rule itself, that I didn't care about the image for the example. B needs no spotting roll for A.

[crabe tambour]

yep. Then I was wrong. I will hang myself with a rotten fish gut right now.

[Magua]

ORIGINAL: Hannes

@Magua
As far as I understand it - all is correct what you say.

@aknaton
Well, wont help you then, but I am working on something what should help a little. No really timeline for this project, though.


Anyways:
I was in my comment so enthusiastic about the spotting rule itself, that I didn't care about the image for the example. B needs no spotting roll for A.

So, even though A is behind bocage, which is blocking terrain, B can automatically see him?

I hope that isn't correct. It doesn't make sense. Bocage is/was probably the best cover available. Not only could the foliage be extremely tangled and thick, the root berm was often a meter or more high itself. It just doesn't make sense to me that you would need to spot a unit in trees, forest, or brush, but not bocage.

We really need a developer to step in and straighten this out.

[Hannes]

Well I am not a developer, but: yes, it is like that.
However, feel free to play it with spotting. Maybe I will also try it one day.

For the game mechanics itself, it is cohesive. The unit IS in open terrein. The same, when you trace LOS through 2 degrading hexes into an open hex with an unit therein. Also no spotting.

[Magua]

I see what you are saying Hannes. And that's kinda the way the rules read to me too. I just assumed I was missing something. If it's true, they've gutted the most important terrain feature in the game. It was the opaqueness and density of the bocage that set the tone for the fighting in Normandy. It was the very fact that you couldn't see what was on the other side that made the fighting in bocage country so tough. To allow units to automatically see enemy units positioned behind bocage at a hundred yards or more, would be unrealistic. Considering how much work went into this system to make it as accurate as it is, it's just hard for me to believe this.

Yo! Devs! A little help here?

[benpark]

That seems wrong. The hedgerow should block LOS. I don't have my game yet (Tuesday), but I will change the rule myself if the hedgerow does not block it. Will this majorly screw up any other rules as a "house rule"?

And yeah, now that the game is out-where the heck did the guy who wrote the rules go!

[Hannes]

You mean - change it that you need to spot units in a hex where your LOS crosses the bocage in it? No, screws up nothing.

[stanguay]

No, changing this rule won't screw up anything. Oh and remember that Bocage DOES block LOS, only not into an hex adjacent to it. I suppose it represent a unit that is peering over the earth bank, trying to spot ennemy on the other side too.

It's a classic rule in Squad Leader too, applied to walls. You can't see a unit on the other side of a wall except if said unit is adjacent to the wall. Again, I think it represent that this unit is peering over the wall, trying to spot ennemy or some such.

Myself, I do require a spotting check. And I would be inclined to do the same for a unit standing on open ground behind one or two hexes of blocking/degrading terrain. Right now, this unit would be spotted automatically.

but that's just me.

[Magua]

Benpark-

I tend to agree with the other guys here in that I don't think incorporating a "must spot first" rule for units adjacent to bocage will change things that much. I'm doing it myself.

I think being able to see units adjacent to hedges and walls makes sense. I think it's appropriate to assume that units looking over the top of these features are likely to be seen, where with bocage, the tangle of trees and brush make it easy for those adjacent to see without being seen.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: benpark

That seems wrong. The hedgerow should block LOS. I don't have my game yet (Tuesday), but I will change the rule myself if the hedgerow does not block it. Will this majorly screw up any other rules as a "house rule"?

And yeah, now that the game is out-where the heck did the guy who wrote the rules go!

Hi Ben (and all). I'm like you in still waiting for the game but I'm going to break a big rule of mine here in commenting on something I don't own because I think there are fires billowing here for no need - and I do fully intend to own this game.

Mark Walker writes in post 4468 on the LnL Consimworld thread:

the rules and TEC are correct. If you are adjacent to hedge, wall, or bocage you are "automatically" spotted if the spotting unit has clear LOS to you and you are in clear/open terrain.

NB the clear terrain proviso. Hanne's then shows how clear the case is covering adjacent units with bocage between them in at post 4469:

let's have a step by step look what the Player Aid says for this point:
First of all the basic: Bocage is a 1 level hindrance with a +2 TEM, that blocks LOS. Units adjacent to bocage hex side can be seen, and need not be spotted. Units adjacent to the bocage that receive fire across the bocage hex side receive the TM, but outgoing fire from units adjacent to the bocage that crosses the bocage hex side receives a -1 modifier

Why is a unit adjacent to bocage spotted? Because (going on the demo rules I have) a unit is "automatically spotted" if adjacent.

The only thing my demo rules do not cover in this regard is how hindrances operate. But going on the above, I have faith that their rules will be very straight forward.

So guys imho, this is a non-issue as much as it was when Panzer Campaigns Normandy was released. These are design decisions - however, the rules behind them are perfectly clear.

Cheers,

Adam.

[benpark]

Thanks, guys. I'm curious about how an ambush will work, then(again, my copy is due to arrive soon from NWS, so I don't have the rules yet). Particularly in terms of what role the hedgerows play in cover and concelement.

[Hannes]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Why is a unit adjacent to bocage spotted? Because (going on the demo rules I have) a unit is "automatically spotted" if adjacent.

Maybe I read it wrong - but don't mix: a unit adjacent to a unit (auto-spot) with a unit adjacent to bocage (i.e. a hex with bocage on one/more hexisde)

ORIGINAL: benpark
Particularly in terms of what role the hedgerows play in cover and concelement.

They give a +2 TEM, what is pretty good. Forest gives you a +2 for example. Thinking of this: don't you think that a spotting attempt for a unit behind bocage makes it a little too 'powerful'? Then it gives as much cover as dense woods do. hm <thinking>

[Borther Omar]

I've read the bocage notes a million times. I've come to the conslusion that they work this way:

LOS is blocked from crossing Bocage feature...that is, spotting is NOT possible through bocage except when two enemy units are adjacent.

Brother Omar

[Hannes]

For Spotting:
Units that didn't take any action what causes attention (like firing, moving, being in melee) and in a degrading or blocking terrain - they need to be spotted before someone can harm them.

For that "adjacent" thing: If one of your units is good order and adjacent to such an unit, it automatically spots it.

For Bocage:
Hm, if noone mind, I crosspost from somewhere else where I tried to help more then I confuse

O.K. - let's have a step by step look what the Player Aid says for this point:

First of all the basic: Bocage is a 1 level hindrance with a +2 TEM, that blocks LOS.

Units adjacent to bocage hex side can be seen, and need not be spotted.
Units adjacent to the bocage that receive fire across the bocage hex side receive the TM, but outgoing fire from units adjacent to the bocage that crosses the bocage hex side receives a -1 modifier.[...] - then some specifications.


However - this tells: My unit sit in a hex, where bocage is on hexsides of it. So far so good. If someone wants to fire at my unit it need not be spotted. Good? If he does so, my unit receives the TM. If my unit wants to fire and fires through the hexside with the bocage, it has to deal with a -1 modifier.
Whether my unit has to spot or not depends - also here - on the target situation!

Blocks LOS traced through, or along, the bocage hex side from the same elevation to the same elevation. Doesn’t block LOS to a hex in which the bocage forms a hex side.

Just says - when my LOS crosses a bocage image, the LOS is blocked in either way - exception: firer or target is in the hex where this bocage is on the hexside.

LOS IS blocked when traced along the bocage hex side.

This is a specialty. BTW: read the wall/hedge notes too. Same family - bocage is just a 'mod' of them.

Bocage does NOT cast a one hex shadow.

Why that note? Cause it is a 1 level hindrance [last para of 10.3]. 1 level hindrances cause normally a 1 hex shadow when firer-target are at different levels. But this bocage things are no 'in hex terrain' like houses, hills, tall grass, ... they are hexside terrain. So their shadow would be in 'their' hex. No, it isn't - so you can firefight in such sitautions.

[Pirke]

Sorry to step in so late but I was also strugling with this during my vacation.

I do understand that units spot eachother if adjecent, also in the case of a bocage hexside. But will both units also receive the TM form the bocage/wall/hedge when firing at eachother?

And what if in Magua's picture there is a unit D 1 hex north and 1 hex north/east of A. There will be a bocage hexside between A and D and this would block LOS between A and B? In case of a wall/hedge there will be LOS. That is how I interpreted it.

Also on the spotting rules. What I find a bid strange is that each turn units have to be spotted again allthough they could just been fired on during the last impulse of the previous turn?

Pirke.

[Magua]

So it seems the rule runs counter to logic. That is that B can see A and does not need to spot him.



At the very least, Bocage = Trees + Brush. Units in trees and brush must be spotted. So why when you put these two terrain features together, and add a hefty earth berm does the whole thing become transparent? It sounds whacky to me. It doesn't make sense to me.

But more importantly, why has not one single member of the dev team stepped in here to clear this whole thing up? This discussion has been going on for a week now. This is all very discouraging. [:@]

[crabe tambour]

ORIGINAL: Pirke

Also on the spotting rules. What I find a bid strange is that each turn units have to be spotted again allthough they could just been fired on during the last impulse of the previous turn?

Hi Pirke
My interpretation : unspotted doesn't mean only "unnoticed". It means also "in cover" or that you don't have a satisfying angle on it to fire. So a unit discovers itself when firing for example (marked "fire" = spotted), and retake cover just after that (remove "fire" marker during admin phase). It seems pretty realistic to me. It's why i like this spotting rules...

[crabe tambour]

ORIGINAL: Magua
At the very least, Bocage = Trees + Brush. Units in trees and brush must be spotted. So why when you put these two terrain features together, and add a hefty earth berm does the whole thing become transparent? It sounds whacky to me. It doesn't make sense to me.

Hi Magua. My 2p again. I don't know what would say one of the dev team, but here is my explanation :
Units in brush or trees need to be spotted but don't forget it is whole hexe full of trees or brush. Bocage is just a line
Bocage is a very irregular line, with holes sometimes, sometimes very large sometimes very thin. It can explains the transparent stuff. (my interpretation). Why not. It's a valuable designer's choice
(and don't forget that +2 TM, 4 MP, blocking LOS, are laregely enough to make of bocage a very problemous terrain)

Anyway, the rule is clear : no need to spot if in open terrain. I played it "wrong" (need to spot) intuitively (sorry if i disturbed tou with my previous answers).
Now i play it "correctly". And it doesn't change anything to the game, to the scenarios balance etc... [:)] I can't even say wich I prefer, I don't care. So, do it as you prefer. It's your game. And if i meet you (or anybody) one day on Vassal, i will play bocage exactly as you want [;)] . Time to play now !