Stick a fork in the Bear! He's done.

Nemesis · Post by **Nemesis** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 5:34 pm

"I think Finland would have tried to get peace but our president made a personal agreement with hitler not to make peace in exchange for equipment, a president which after the war was tried for war crimes."

That personal agreement with Hitler was brilliant move! By doing it, the president persuaded germans to send more equipment, but it wasn't legally binding (something germans didn't know). If the government had started the peace-negotiations with Soviets, germans would have protested, but legally there was nothing they could have done, since the government of Finland hadn't made any deals with germans. Only agreement was that personal agreement between Hitlen and the president.

As for the post-war trials. Well, Soviets insisted on 'em, so we reluctantly sued the leading war-era politicians. We didn't really have a choice. Well, the finnish communists were quite happy with those trials.

It's interesting to know, that soviets did not want to sue Mannerheim. I guess they knew that while finnish people would (reluctantly) accept trials against the politicians, they would NEVER move against Mannerheim. He has extremely highly respected both in Finland and abroad.

Juba · Post by **Juba** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 1:08 pm

Correct Nemesis, why are there so many Finns on this board?

Nemesis · Post by **Nemesis** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 1:34 pm

There's a little wargamer living inside every finn

NEON DEON · Post by **NEON DEON** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:57 pm

I think the Finns plan on taking over the world by cell phone

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 3:00 pm

And there is a lot of sisu in them.

(No I am not Finnish, I watched the Nordic Worldmasterhip on German TV)

Juba · Post by **Juba** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:40 pm

'There's a little wargamer living inside every finn '

Jokaisessa asuu myos pieni lehma

!

I think the Finns plan on taking over the world by cell phone

and the yankees plan to do it with an elite raccoon rapid reaction force (art of wargaming board joke) and it's no by cell phone its by handie (translation of the Finnish slang word for handphone)

NEON DEON · Post by **NEON DEON** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 6:25 am

QUOTE:
and the yankees plan to do it with an elite raccoon rapid reaction force (art of wargaming board joke) and it's no by cell phone its by handie (translation of the Finnish slang word for handphone)

-----------------------------------

REPLY:
LOL!

Well, being partial to air power. I always thought the US was going to take over the world with his obvious numerical superiority
in flying squirrels

Juba · Post by **Juba** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

we have flying gekkos in malaysia

hmusto · Post by **hmusto** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 6:30 pm

I would like to add on this topic, that Finland was aware of coming attack by Germans against Soviets well before 22th of June. I can't remember exact date or events, but in the memoirs of Paavo Talvela he says that he was being contacted by Mannerheim (who undoubtly knew of this attack even earlier) that Germany is going to attack Russia and Finland is going to be alongside. Of course it was politically correct to wait for the Soviets to start aggressions against Finland before initiating and declaring the war. I need to reread that chapter to give the exact date. The reasons why Finland decided to join Germany were the Soviet pressure after Winter War, lost territories and it was considered better to be rather alongside Germany than the old enemy. It was obivous to the Finnish leaders of that time that choise must be made, one side or another.
Also I remember another quote from that book: After the wars, Talvela was lobbying in SU because of his civil work, he met an ex-soviet general who made a remark like "you finns too tried to come to Leningrad, but the red army stopped you" (or something of like). Talvelas reply was:"We would have, but Mannerheim didn't let us". I think that with Finnish help Leningrad could have had a good chance of falling and had perhaps "relieved" several German divisions to other parts of eastern front and maybe changing the outcome of Barbarossa.

Juba · Post by **Juba** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 7:06 am

Look at Stalingrad it took a long time to fall so would have Leningrad so the divisions wouldn't probobly have made it to Barbarossa and they'd be severly understrength.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 2:39 pm

Originally posted by Juba:
Look at Stalingrad it took a long time to fall so would have Leningrad so the divisions wouldn't probobly have made it to Barbarossa and they'd be severly understrength.

Stalingrad was a little different. Hitler and Stalin, because of the city's name, paid more attention to this battle than any other. German forces did not surround the city before attacking. In game terms, its a frontal assault from two adjacent hexes. Major cities do not usually fall from frontal assualts like this, so the fighting is protracted. Now Leningrad is a completely differenct situation. It can't be easily surrounded (remember the Finns would not participate in this), but by pushing further east, its supplly line could be cut, so the real fighting wasn't at Leningrad, it was east of Leningrad. Had the supply line been cut Leningrad would have fallen fairly quick.

Nemesis · Post by **Nemesis** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 2:49 pm

"Now Leningrad is a completely differenct situation. It can't be easily surrounded (remember the Finns would not participate in this)"

Well, yes and no. Finns didn't want to take part in the actual invasion of the city, but they did surround it from the north. In practise, the supply-lines to Leningrad were cut. How many people died of starvation in Leningrad? 100.000? Propably alot more, can't remember the actual figure.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 2:54 pm

Originally posted by Nemesis:
Well, yes and no. Finns didn't want to take part in the actual invasion of the city, but they did surround it from the north.

The Finns didn't attack as part of a coordinated assault with German forces, that is the important point. Leningrad during winter months had a railroad running on a frozen lake from the east to supply it. I believe they were running boats when the lake was unfrozen, not sure. Yes, there was starvation because not enough food could get thru, but they weren't 100% surrounded, and their military strength did not drop all that much, because military needs took precendence over feeding the civilians.

In practise, the supply-lines to Leningrad were cut.

At several times it was, then a counterattack and the lines are reformed. Like I said the heavy fighting to the east was all about cutting off Leningrad, and the Soviets knew that, and that's why the fighting there was so desperate. Leningrad was in and out of supply several times during the seige.