Stick a fork in the Bear! He's done.

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:10 am

I think this version is great. I think it balanced out the game well. The Russians put up a strong fight in the Winter 41 (even though they did not stop the massive attack I used from the north come spring heh). But anyway the only issue I see and maybe not an issue at all is that germans seem lose too many units in the 41 Russian offensive in the winter. Fins even came in handy in taking lenningrad which was a change or maybe I just used them much more this round.

The AI choices of replacements were good seen many more T34s instead of the old armor they use to use until later in 42.

Besides that thanks for a great update matrix!

NEON DEON · Post by **NEON DEON** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 4:32 am

Do you notice any difference in how the air forces play?

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:27 am

Yes I notice that the russians seem to have a decent airforce in 1941 but in my game they lost over 20,000 aircarft, I forget the exact number. They played heck on my Bombers. And they also had good raids on my airbases they were getting several 50+ aircraft destroyed messages. If I remember right they use to not hardly get in the air in the last game til 43.

[This message has been edited by tsbond (edited February 22, 2001).]

Juba · Post by **Juba** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 6:43 pm

'Fins even came in handy in taking lenningrad which was a change or maybe I just used them much more this round. '

What do you mean 'even came in handy' they were among the best troops in the whole war. Historically though I can't see them crossing so far into Russian territory as Finnish politicians/soldiers were very reluctant to cross the old border.

Nemesis · Post by **Nemesis** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:27 pm

Actually, the finnish trops did cross the old border. In east Karelia, they advanced quite alot in to Soviet territory (almost enough for them to make contact with german troops, but they (both germans and finns) didn't quite make it). And they did surround Leningrad from the north, but they did not attack the city.

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:45 pm

It means what it says. I used the Fins a great deal more in this game then I did in past games. I never made any statement on the character or fighting ability of the Finnish army. In the past I seemed to leave them pretty much to their own devices but this time I made them assault the city until it was captured. They had heavy loses taking the minor areas to the north. After the city fell I no longer used them very much except for bomber base and fighter base.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 12:51 pm

Originally posted by Juba:
What do you mean 'even came in handy' they were among the best troops in the whole war. Historically though I can't see them crossing so far into Russian territory as Finnish politicians/soldiers were very reluctant to cross the old border.

Good point. For those who would like to stick with more of a historical simulation, keep in mind the Finns did not fully participate in the war with Germany. They never helped the Germans with Leningrad, and the never even cooperated in a joint battle with the Germans, according to what I've read.

Juba · Post by **Juba** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 1:09 pm

'Good point. For those who would like to stick with more of a historical simulation, keep in mind the Finns did not fully participate in the war with Germany. They never helped the Germans with Leningrad, and the never even cooperated in a joint battle with the Germans, according to what I've read.'

True and I'm not sure if it was in WW2 but if a Finnish commander launches a frontal assault he will be court martialed. Ask Ilkka in the Art of Wargaming forum. The only co-operation we really had with the germans was in the north where typically the Finnish troops would come to the rescue when the German situation got too desperate. We also didn't give any Jews to Germany. The reason we allied with Germany we were politically isolated, the army was very underequipped and that we were fighting the same enemy.

Optha · Post by **Optha** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:36 pm

"The same enemy"

The question is, why the finns try to recapture the territorium just lost to the soviets in 1939/40. The underequipped situation ends in a ( not very strong) german political influence.

heiks · Post by **heiks** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:47 pm

Originally posted by Juba:

True and I'm not sure if it was in WW2 but if a Finnish commander launches a frontal assault he will be court martialed. Ask Ilkka in the Art of Wargaming forum. The only co-operation we really had with the germans was in the north where typically the Finnish troops would come to the rescue when the German situation got too desperate. We also didn't give any Jews to Germany. The reason we allied with Germany we were politically isolated, the army was very underequipped and that we were fighting the same enemy.

The Finnish forces in the north were under the command of the German forces there.

And I also believe, that the statement about Jews is not quite accurate. I seem to recall vaguely, that some Jews were indeed sent to Germany, but the number was in the single digits.

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:59 pm

Originally posted by Optha:
"The same enemy"

The question is, why the finns try to recapture the territorium just lost to the soviets in 1939/40. The underequipped situation ends in a ( not very strong) german political influence.

Of course they try to recapture their lost land! There were refugees from those areas by the hundreds of thousands in Finland after the Winter War that wanted to go home. Why should the Finns not have tried to take back what was theirs once the Germans won their initial victories?

OK, in hindsight they lost even more; but not fighting was not a "safe" option either. After a Soviet victory over Germany the Russians might very well have continued their attack on Finland. There are those who belive that "Barbarossa" came about time to preventing the Soviets from renewing their attack on Finland... They didn't but then we're benefitting from hindsight again. And even if they didn't attack, a victorious Soviet Union gained more political influence over Finland than Germany ever had.

If anything, it would have made more sense for the Finns (from a strictly amoral national interest point of wiev) to help the Germans MORE, like attacking Leningrad and advancing beyond the Svir.

Juba · Post by **Juba** » Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:11 am

'The question is, why the finns try to recapture the territorium just lost to the soviets in 1939/40. The underequipped situation ends in a ( not very strong) german political influence. '

We lost our mining industry in the north, our link to the sea North of Norway (forgot the name) and in the south we lost some of the best defensive land we had and that was our best weapon against the russians and I think people were sure that another Russian attack would come and people anyways wanted revenge. The political situation changed very quickly in 1944 from being allies with Germany we turned enemies, there wasn't any big battles because the Germans fled faster than a ferrari on a German highway. The Karelian isthmus was our culturally most rich area home to a big percentage of Finns (the total amount of refugees from 39/40 was 500,000 total population 400,000,0).

'If anything, it would have made more sense for the Finns (from a strictly amoral national interest point of wiev) to help the Germans MORE, like attacking Leningrad and advancing beyond the Svir.'

Our reserves of men were already thin so attacking such well defended areas would have been very risky and as I said the Finnish troops didn't want to go into Russian lands at all. In the north it was different as there were Finns living across the old border too and the Murmansk railroad was an important objective to the germans.

Juba · Post by **Juba** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 7:05 am

I just remembered this, the Finns waited until the Russians declared war on Finland before attacking, so they actually started the war.

Ancient One · Post by **Ancient One** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:56 am

Originally posted by Juba:
I just remembered this, the Finns waited until the Russians declared war on Finland before attacking, so they actually started the war.

I think I heard that somewhere else before. What puzzles me, is why the Russians would declare war on Finland when they were already at war with Germany, does anyone know the reason for that?

Martinov · Post by **Martinov** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:18 pm

I had always had a slightly different interpretation why the finns weren't more aggressive:

The Russians wanted the Karelia etc to protect themselves from Finnish attack.

The Finns protested that this was not necessary as they had no interest in going past their borders.

The Russians didn't believe them and seized the lands.

When the finns got the opportunity they took their lands back, but went no/not much further, if they had then earlier russian attack would have been justified.

This meant they not only proved their word but made themselves popular with both sides, (with the germans for participating & with the russians for not participating too hard) a sensible plan if your're a small county surrounded by two huge totalitarian powers.

Optha · Post by **Optha** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:58 pm

Thanky fr the answer. Did the finns have any idea of the difficult situation later on, or did they have planned a peace after reached their primary goal?

Optha · Post by **Optha** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:03 pm

Zagys,

ive read in chronik, that on 06/26/41 Finnland declared war on Russia.

Juba · Post by **Juba** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:42 pm

Finland declared war on USSR after USSR declared war on Finland. The russkies actually started the war by bombing many civilian targets in Finland. I guess the Finns were counting that the Germans would finish off the Russians, after all many of our officers had been trained in Germany but I think Finland would have tried to get peace but our president made a personal agreement with hitler not to make peace in exchange for equipment, a president which after the war was tried for war crimes.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:57 pm

Originally posted by Juba:
I think Finland would have tried to get peace but our president made a personal agreement with hitler not to make peace in exchange for equipment, a president which after the war was tried for war crimes.

Hmmm, by who was he tried? Soviets? Finnish communists? A political agreement with a foreign country is automatically a war-crime, or is it just because it was Hitler that he made the agreement with?

[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited February 25, 2001).]

Juba · Post by **Juba** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:49 pm

'Hmmm, by who was he tried? Soviets? Finnish communists? A political agreement with a foreign country is automatically a war-crime, or is it just because it was Hitler that he made the agreement with?.'

He was tried by a soviet sponsored trial (not sure about that since it was an american source, some yankee textbooks still claim the soviets annexed Finland in 1944) he got 10 years but only served 3 due to ill health. I think it was because he made an agreement not to make peace, or just post war bitterness. The sad thing was that the soviet 'partisan' squads that attacked civilian targets near the border were never tried.