AAR swift vs fochinell

[fochinell]

15th December 1943. A: 100/1049 (15 aa), X: 53/1150 (0 gd). 61 B-17F lost and 10% casualties for the allies means a tactical success for the LW, damn them [:@]

MTO: The usual fighter strikes on Italian RR, no air combat.

ETO: A heavily-escorted small-scale B-17 raid to Iserlohn RUBBER is defeated by a major LW reaction (check out OKL's sortie count). I was expecting Werner to take another rest day rather than take the bait of a minor raid with substantial escort. Instead he turns the tables on me with a massive assault as the raid crosses Holland, which eventually turns the bomber groups back before reaching the target. This is mainly due to the combat taking place before my target leg and return leg P-47 escorts arrive for the sections I anticipated resistance. The inbound leg LR escorts of one P-38L and one P-51B group fight hard, but are simply overwhelmed, and the bombing force is too small to defend itself effectively. 26/300f 61/64b 73e. A 9th AF P-47 sweep in support helps slightly on the inbound leg, while a 2TAF mossie raid hits Hoechst Plastique and escape before the LW units in France can get to the scene.

BC: 3 Group to Essen in a concentrated raid for 7/264b lost, all to Flak with no NJG response. Halle RR PR'd at 59% which is a little disappointing for last night's major Lancaster raid.

[fochinell]

16th December 1943. A: 24/521 (7 aa), X: 2/259 (0 gd).. Low-energy bad weather turn.

MTO: The usual tactical stuff, fighter strikes vs RR, no air combat.

ETO: 9th AF FS to Tavaux AF comes off badly against a major response from the LW in France, taking 12 P-47D losses. An FC sweep to Schipol AF does a little better earlier in the day, but overall losses for no return.

BC: 4 Group to Handels-Hafen PORT. Looks like a good raid, 0/216b with all bombs in the target area. No NJG response.

[Reg]

Ohh... Someone sprung the the Big Ambush!!

ORIGINAL: fochinell

12th December 1943. A: 306/2524 (24aa), X: 260/2688 (0 gd). A major bloodbath [:)], but while the Axis losses are high, Werner's concentration on my bombers leads to very heavy B-17 losses. [:@] It will take a few turns to build up the 1st Bomb Division of the 8th AF after today's slaughter. 15 Spit Vb, 2 Spit IX, 14 P-38L, 2 P-38H, 2 P-47C, 22 P-47D, 9 P-51B, 228 B-17G. I've hit the 10% attrition I wanted, and inflicted more than 250 losses on the LW, but the price was steeper than I wanted - Werner inflicted 12% attrition on me, and more importantly cost me almost 1 B-17 per a/c destroyed.

Only a few turns to build up the 1st Bomb Division, fochinell?? In replacement aircraft maybe but what about experience and morale effects??

I'm sure swift will agree he can't do this too often as this level of e/a losses is giving you what you need to win but if this type of counter attack can blunt the edge of Allied Bomber forces for a time, it might just well be worth it.

[fochinell]

Only a few turns to build up the 1st Bomb Division, fochinell??

Yep, they're back on the attack on the 18th December, weather permitting.

In replacement aircraft maybe but what about experience and morale effects??

Exp accumulation is low - replacement pilots are no worse than existing veterans at this point, given high attrition. That changes later on, but it's not a problem just yet. The 1st BD groups were down to 16 aircraft and around 20-25% morale, but all ten groups are over 50% morale now (I rarely use strategic bomber units with less than 50% morale - their bombing accuracy suffers too much).

I'm sure swift will agree he can't do this too often as this level of e/a losses is giving you what you need to win but if this type of counter attack can blunt the edge of Allied Bomber forces for a time, it might just well be worth it.

At the moment I stand to gain more than I lose; I've always got 40-50% of the 8th AF bomber units held back in reserve, as the 480-strong B-17F raids on 14th December 1943 indicated. The Axis player needs to do this kind of damage on about three consecutive turns to make this work by crippling morale in my estimation. Swift likes his fighters to have high morale for high efficiency, so I'm usually guaranteed a turn or two afterwards where he concedes the skies to me. Which means he lets his tactical victory slip into strategic defeat.. heh heh heh

[fochinell]

17th December 1943. A: 66/2012 (19 aa), X: 21/457 (0 gd). Small-scale tactical defeat for the allies. 18 Spit Vb, 17 Spit IX and 12 Typhoons.

MTO: The usual Tac fighter strikes on Italian RR.

ETO: Moderate-scale 8th AF attacks on transport targets; Bonn and Troisdorf RR hit for 65% and 60% damage respectively by two groups of B-17F each. Almost zero resistance. 0/400f 1/124b 3e. The 9th AF Marauders cover the return route by hitting Stahlwerk Krieger STEEL for 81% against nil resistance - 1/123f 3/64b 0e. The main combats are against the supporting 2TAF tactical raids over Belgium; a Spit Vb strike against Evere AF loses 11/69f 4e, the Mitchells bombing Brussels/Midi RR lose 16/223f 3/67b 4e and a Typhoon strike against Lesquin CHEM loses 6/72f 12/72b 11e. So a bad day for the RAF. I expect the Tiffies to get massacred if they get caught, but the crapulence of the Spits is tiresome; the IX should be a more dangerous opponent than this. [:@] Sottevast VSITE gets hit by another Tiffie strike for 100% damage, but who really cares about the VSITES?

BC: 5 Group to Cologne. Looks like a concentrated raid, with 1 lost to small-scale NJG activity for 1 NI kill. 4/352b.

[fochinell]

18th December 1943. A: 21/2289 (6 aa), X: 22/449 (0 gd). Minor tactical success for the allies. 8 P-47D were my maximum losses by type.

MTO: The usual fighter strikes against Italian RR.

ETO: 8th AF launch heavy attacks. Three forces of 100 B-17G from the 1st Bomb Division - who have just finished rebuilding after the massive losses of the 12th - hit transport targets around Magdeburg. No resistance on the way in, and Madgeburg RR hit for 62%, Magdeburg-Elbe PORT 66% and Rothensee-Elbe 99%. The Luftwaffe do send some fighters up to patrol over a waypoint on the way back north of Dortmund (cripple-hunting), but these end up getting sandwiched between the supporting 2TAF raid covering the return leg on one hand (following 9th AF raid is too late to join in the fun) and the 8th with their escorts on the other. They didn't do too well trying to bounce 8th AF Thunderbolts on the way home before that, either. Bad luck Werner. [:'(] The icing on the cake was some accurate bombing by the mediums for once. Overall results - 9/613f 2/300b 13e for the 8th, 0/163f 0/64b 0e Ummeln BBFAC 99% for the 9th and 4/317f 0/71b 11e Ludwig BBFAC 47% for 2TAF.

BC: 6 Group hit Mannheim, all bombloads reported in the city area but it looked like creep-back into the N and NW area of the town. 1 NI kill for 2 Mossies lost to Flak. Cologne RR PR'd at 99% - go 5 Group [:)] and Essen RR at 79%.

[medaloffairness]

ORIGINAL: swift

ORIGINAL: Joel Rauber

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

the trouble is, to be honest, the combat model overall is too tame, there are alot of things that happened during the war, that we can't do or copy

now, that said, should the Allies lose 110 B-17s during the day, no, but will the player plot his raids the same way the real guys did ? again no

cardboard solders are easier to order to there death, then real ones

one trouble we have, is fighters if they get into trouble are not going to dive to the deck and get of out dodge, they are going to stick with the game plan

(same trouble most Flight Sim have, even outnumbered, or beaten, the enemy planes are going to stay in the fight)

Would it be fair to interpret from the above, that if one plotted more "historical" style raids that the loss rates would look more historical?

yes indeed [:)]

Hi my addicted fellows,

I suffered from the problem with the pilots in the game who stay in combat although they have a very little chance to survive.
In the game I used the Me109 G14 to attack the escort fighters as soon as possible in order to reduce the height of them and to force them to drop their additional tank bottles...
Of course they outnumbered my Me109 G14 by 1:10 so I after they attacked them once or twice I ordered a recall to their bases in order to avoid the problem mentioned above.
It works not that bad but:
Unfortunatly they remain at their altitude when they leave the combat so if an escort fighter crosses the path of my mighty fighters turning home they are shot down easily (I had the impression that fighters with an order to fly home do not really defend themselves or even enter an aircombat).
Therefore I suggest that the axis planes with an recall order to their bases will fly as low as possible and with combat speed or above (MW50 speed boosters) but high enough to get out of the plane with their parachute if they are engaged and hit (3000 feets).
I think in the manual it says that a combat is only possible when the difference in altitudes of the planes from different "post offices" is minor then 2500 feet. Therefore the german planes heading home were low over the ground are out of danger afterwards.

The allied player doesn`t have a real disadvantage because of this german tactic and can use it too. Over and above of it, the allied player can conduct a fighter sweep beneath the allied bomber raid to "collect" such dispersed german units at 6000 feet.

If it would be introduced in the game then I think it would be more realistic, because some years ago I had the chance of interviewing one FW190 pilot who got POW in 1945 (Operation Bodenplatte) and attacked bomber formation at the end of 1943 and 1944.
He said that it was only possible to attack a bomber formation once, sometimes twice... but if they have fighter escort then you have only one chance... after the first attack you have to dive very quickly in order to get out of the range of the fighter escort. The fighter escort had the choice of following them which would cause a splitt in the fighter escort or to stay with the bombers. Another tactic the german used was to place Me109-K fighters at a very high altitude above the bombers. Their job was to distract the fighters and made choice a bit harder for them to leave the bomber formation.
The germans who left combat by going deeper and faster aimed for certain areas where they knew (if possible) massive flak (anti aircraft)was located in order to get help from the ground if they were followed by allied fighters. He told me that the flak on the ground was his real wing man in late 1944.
Sorry for the last paragraph.. but maybe this is interesting for some others as well.


As a summary I can say that I think it is possible to reflect the evasion from the scene in the game... maybe some other think so too..

It would be nice to hear some pros and cons...

At this point I also have to say that this is really a great platform for discussions... I think I am the only one in Vienna (Austria) who plays this game but it is my favorite one since its release... Thanks to all...[&o][&o][&o]

Best Regards Chris

[von Shagmeister]

Swift lives in Wien, though I think he is originally from Linz.

[wernerpruckner]

ORIGINAL: von Shagmeister

Swift lives in Wien, though I think he is originally from Linz.

never lived in Linz

born in Carinthia ( St.Veit an der Glan )
lived in Salzburg, Klagenfurt, Völs (near Innsbruck), Spittal an der Drau, Graz and Vienna

went to school in Völs, Spittal an der Drau, Vienna and Klagenfurt
Visited the University in Graz

at the moment living an working in Vienna

[wernerpruckner]

 I think I am the only one in Vienna (Austria) who plays this game but it is my favorite one since its release... Thanks to all...[&o][&o][&o]

 
I know at least three others here in Vienna [:)]

[medaloffairness]

Oh, great.... [:D][:D][:D]
 
Then it would be an honor for me to play a campaign with you Swift or one of the three others when the new version is released.
 
And what do you think about the evasion of fighters after an attaxk and the ability to reflect this in the game?
 
Best Regards and Servus from Vienna
 
Christian

[von Shagmeister]

Sorry Swift, Graz is what I was thinking about

[fochinell]

While the Osterreichers are busy chatting, sipping coffee and eating cakes the nasty Allies are back to destroy their beer supplies....

19th December 1943. A: 26/1892 (13 aa), X: 17/116 (11 gd).

MTO: The 15th AF hit Wiener Neustadt for an excellent raid - 100% damage for very low losses. The only resistance was a half-hearted attempt at a bingo-fuel assault on the bombers by some MC.205's as they exited the Adriatic coast, which cost Werner a couple of a/c for nothing. 0/240f 5/96b 5e. A couple of supporting 12th AF P-38H strikes hit AF's south of Vienna for cover, but they do little damage and no strafing. The MTO tac forces otherwise hit Italian industry with the mediums, doing some suprisingly high damage on some targets for once.

ETO: Quiet apart from a 9th AF P-47D strike on Hirson RR (93%) followed immediately by a further P-47D group and some FC Spit Vb sqns strafing Athies AF, which seems to have produced some ground kills. A supporting 2TAF Tiffie strike on Hazebrouk does little.

BC: 1 Group to Ludwigshafen for an excellent raid - everybody apart from the ABC Flight of 101 Sqn get their bombloads in the city area. Some NJG response, matched by NI claims of 3 kills for 1 loss. 1/291b. 205 Group hit Vienna, for heavy flak and some NJG resistance. Another excellent raid despite increased losses - all bombloads in the city area. 8/171b, including 7/120 Lib D's.

[Hard Sarge]

I think that should be Ostonelinetypers

there is a bit more range between Alts for a fighter to make an attack on others

in old game, once a plane ran out of gas, it was close to dead meat, now planes with low fuel, have a better chance to defend themselfs and also a chance to start combat, it can be interesting, to see a red stream and a blue stream crossing and a number of fights breaking out

the dive to the deck to get away, you also got to remember, early on, the US fighters were under orders to stick with the bombers, later, once Gen Dolittle took over, he changed the order, US fighters job was to Kill the LW, no matter where they were seen, so while they were and did, stick with the bombers, they had much more leeway in chasing or not

plus, the hassle is, the same would be done with the Allied fighters, you got in trouble, you hit the deck, or you looked around and found other fighters to join, in the game, it does not model that part

[fochinell]

20th December 1943. A: 226/2340 (28 aa), X: 176/2237 (0 gd). 148 B-17F, 20 P-47D, 20 P-38L, 8 Spit IX, 7 Spit Vb. Another day of heavy losses! But not as good for me as they first appear...

MTO: The usual fighter strikes on Italian RR dodging between the clouds. The action is restricted to some balloon losses and collisions.

ETO: Major attack by the 8th AF on Leipzig AFACs - two forces of 160 B-17F with maximum escort. Werner takes a risk and OKL send the LW up en masse. This pays off, as despite some ferocious defence by the P-47D inbound escorts - the 359th and 56th FG's, with the 56th reaching 141 kills in total by the end of the turn - the bombers get hit hard as the escorts get overwhelmed . This is compounded by what looks like a 20-40 minute weather delay of the deep penetration and target-leg escorts, who only catch up with the bombers just before Leipzig instead of after the bombers pass Hamm, as planned. The result is a massive loss of B-17's and Axis interceptors; virtually all the bombers going down are lost due to interceptor attack on the inbound leg. A worrying sign was one BG turning back early under this assault. Bombing results are suprisingly good considering, with Seibel AFAC 99%, although Erla AFAC seems to escape undamaged. Overall 33/565f 148/320b 192e. The 2TAF and 9th AF mediums are timed to support the return leg approaching Rheine, and miss a lot of the action, although the 9th do get a substantive score of LW fighters RTBing on their second interception of the day. Bombing results are again suprisingly good for the mediums - 9th AF 11/225f 2/64b 42e Klockner STEEL 99% and 2TAF 11/407f 1/70b 13e Hoesch STEEL 36%.

BC: 3 Group to Soest for a good raid with Mossie support; no NJG response. 0/263b and 2/23b for the Mossies who lost their casualties to flak at 24,000 feet while the 3 Stirling squadrons escape loss at 16,000 feet... Ludwigshafen RR PR'd at 40% and Mannheim at 19%, which is disappointing, but I have had a few 99% results from the Lanc raids so I can't really complain.

Normally anything better than 1:1 losses (or even 2:1 if Axis losses are high enough and Allied bomber losses low enough) counts as an allied strategic victory in attritional terms. Despite some hefty Axis losses, however (over 70 Zerstorer), Werner's got me closer to the 10% margin than I got him this turn, and worst of all I'm close to 1 strategic bomber loss per Axis fighter lost, which would give him a clear tactical victory. His relatively low attrition rate for LW sortie total, and the correspondingly high B-17 losses, were caused by OKL risking an early interception of major 8th AF raids in full LW strength. This paid off in full due to weather delays to my escorts, but them's the breaks; I think the interceptions were ordered before he could see this, and I put this down to good tactical play on his part - hitting the bombers early and hard - being rewarded by unforeseen circumstances. On balance I'd say this was a draw, although closer to a LW victory than the overall losses would indicate. Curses...

[wernerpruckner]

ORIGINAL: medaloffairness

Oh, great.... [:D][:D][:D]

Then it would be an honor for me to play a campaign with you Swift or one of the three others when the new version is released.

And what do you think about the evasion of fighters after an attaxk and the ability to reflect this in the game?

Best Regards and Servus from Vienna

Christian

schau mal dort hinein:
http://web2.delta442.server4you.de/vb/index.php
ist das forum der gamershall

[wernerpruckner]

ORIGINAL: von Shagmeister

Sorry Swift, Graz is what I was thinking about

no problem

[fochinell]

21st December 1943. A: 45/917 (24 aa), X: 10/517 (0 gd). Good ratio for OKL, but it's mostly down to heavy medium bomber losses to flak.

MTO: Mediums strike at Italian industry and get pasted by flak for their pains, plus the loss of some flak cripples to the Stab units lurking in southern Italy. 13/64 A-20C and 14/60 Baltimores. I should be losing some, and suffering more damaged, but this is too much [:(]

More significantly, the 15th AF hit WNF Daimler Motoren AFAC for 100% damage and no resistance until the usual bingo-fuel opportunists on the Adriatic coast exit leg discover the last wave of P-38L escorts do actually have some fuel left to defend themselves and the bombers. 1/240f 2/96b 2e. The main combat centers on the 12th AF P-38H airfield strikes south of Vienna again, with a total of 12/96f 5e. Fine by me, though - Werner can tire his pilots out on the expendable tactical fighters whilst the bombers get through unscathed.

ETO: A rare rest day, caused by the weather and the need to fill out some new 8th AF BG's and two new 9th AF P-47D groups as well as replace the losses of the last week's operations.

BC: 4 Group to Emden-Ems PORT. No NJG resistance, 3/216b and over 190 bombloads in target area for a concentrated raid, even if the Halifaxes don't have the bombload to devastate the target.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: fochinell

Would it be fair to interpret from the above, that if one plotted more "historical" style raids that the loss rates would look more historical?

No, IMO playing out 'historical' raids in BTR will give you double the historical casualties, easily. Interceptions tended to be less conclusive in RL, and especially when it involved relatively high-flying, fast and well-defended B-17 formations.

this statement kind of bugs me, while I do not totally disagree, I still think that most of the Game losses are more due to the player, then the system

now this is from

The Strategic Air War against Germany and Japan, by Haywood S. Hansell Jr.

(Co of the 1st Bomb Wing, one of the planners for the AWPD-1. AWPD-42, later Co of the XX Airforce)

phase one, the build up to 800 Heavy Bombers by July of 43, depth of Pen, "Generaly" limited to range of escourt fighters (with exception of Schweinfurt)

phase two, 1192 bombers on hand by Oct of 43, depth of pen, 400 miles from English bases

phase three, 1746 bombers on hand by Jan of 44, depth of pen, 500 miles

phase four, 2702 bombers on hand by June of 44, depth of pen, limited only by range of bombers

and that was the plan, based on the Casablanca Conference

of course, as we know, they wern't able to build up to the plan numbers and didn't follow there own plan that well, even with out the numbers

but so saying, I think most players, will go for the killer target, while the real planners, would be sitting back, saying, naw, not yet, we not ready, and remember, losses on raids to Schweinfurt, or the Big B, were murderous to the planners and they couldn't bring themselfs to replan them again, afterwards, until things were better, in the game, you can take double the losses and say, oh well, I will get them tomorrow

[fochinell]

No, IMO playing out 'historical' raids in BTR will give you double the historical casualties, easily. Interceptions tended to be less conclusive in RL, and especially when it involved relatively high-flying, fast and well-defended B-17 formations.

this statement kind of bugs me, while I do not totally disagree, I still think that most of the Game losses are more due to the player, then the system

Sorry HS, I stand by it. I've played very conservative games, shallow penetration raids, etc, and the combat losses are significantly higher than they were in RL with higher sortie counts.

but so saying, I think most players, will go for the killer target, while the real planners, would be sitting back, saying, naw, not yet, we not ready, and remember, losses on raids to Schweinfurt, or the Big B, were murderous to the planners and they couldn't bring themselfs to replan them again, afterwards, until things were better, in the game, you can take double the losses and say, oh well, I will get them tomorrow

Try replicating the historical attack on Schweinfurt/Regensburg on the first turn - even with the historical supporting Typhoon strikes and Spitfire escorts for the B-17's you'll count yourself lucky to suffer the historical bomber loss rate. I still think the game modelling is good, and it replicates the trends of historical combat and operations, but it is a lot bloodier than it was historically.