Scenario Suggestions

[simovitch]

Although the DDT members have a number of scenarios already in the works, I would be interested to hear what situations you guys really want to see represented (historical and fictional) in the Battles from the Bulge.

To give an idea of the scale of each scenario, think Corps level. for instance, just to cover the entire front on the first 3-5 days, we are looking at about 6-7 scenarios.

[GoodGuy]

A what-if scenario, which would pick up Rundstedt's favoured plan, to revise the situation in the Aachen sector first, before attempting a more powerful thrust (than what had been carried out eventually) through the Ardennes :

His initial plan for the Ardennes offensive envisaged a thrust on a smaller front (in contrast to the actual thrust - which had a width of around 100 km), which required that the front in the Aachen/Monschau sector had been revised prior to the offensive.
Reducing the width of the thrust would have ensured that there would have been enough combat power/manpower to conduct a powerful + concentrated strike, backed up by 3 or 4 additional waves, which were meant to clear and secure the left/right edge of the thrust.

Aaachen was the first West German city to be seized by Allied troops, in October 1944. The proposal had been rejected by the OKH, since Hitler's decision was unalterable already, but it'd be interesting to explore a situation where troops, that had been sent to refit+rest-zones prior to the Ardennes offensive, would have been commited to the Aachen sector first.

The Allied troops in that sector were tired after the several battles of Aachen (3?) and still met some stiff resistance in the area after Aachen surrendered, but they had a higher morale or more experience than the initial amount of US divisions (4?) in the Ardennes area (the Ardennes sector was used as "rest"-zone for units withdrawn from the Hurtgenwald battle (Hurtgen Forest), and as "training" theatre for less experienced units), most likely.
They also were a threat in terms of compromising one edge of the German thrust (through the Ardennes later on).

[Arjuna]

GoodGuy,
 
A good suggestion. However, we have not done maps that far north. Might be a project some enthusiastic user could undertake. If anyone is interested, let us know.
 
Richard,
 
Could you post up here your map coverage diagram. That way people will know the limits to the map area.

[loyalcitizen]

I'd love to see a scenario where a panzer division tries to capture an American supply point on the map, and in doing so raises their own petrol levels.

[jhdeerslayer]

Following Peiper from his breakout through his demise would be appealing.

I had an old ASL module that covered some of this years ago... KG Peiper I think it was.

[tukker]

The advance of KG Peiper is covered. There will also be a "what if" scenario, in which KG Peiper has to establish a bridgehead across the Meuse.
Unfortunately, the capture of supplies can't be simulated by the game engine right now [:(], so raising German fuel levels by capturing a US dump is not possible.

Pieter

[jhdeerslayer]

Is there a scenario list yet?

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: tukker

The advance of KG Peiper is covered. There will also be a "what if" scenario, in which KG Peiper has to establish a bridgehead across the Meuse.
Unfortunately, the capture of supplies can't be simulated by the game engine right now [:(], so raising German fuel levels by capturing a US dump is not possible.

It would be burned by the Belgians anyway [;)] When Peiper was at Stavelot he didn't know about the petrol dump along the road north to Francorchamps. Peiper's orders/plan was to cross the Meuse at Huy which is quite a bit south (and west) from Stavelot so he never tried to go north, nor send recce units in that direction.

The Belgian 5th fusilier battalion thought he would and started to burn the fuel, also blocking the road with it, half a million liters burned, the remaining 3 million were evacuated to the rear. So the movie scene in which the panzer columns are stopped by blazing petrol fires is fiction, but based on some hard facts [;)]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[RayWolfe]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
So the movie scene in which the panzer columns are stopped by blazing petrol fires is fiction, but based on some hard facts [;)]

As opposed to the rest of the film???? [:'(]
Ray

[simovitch]

ORIGINAL: Deerslayer

Is there a scenario list yet?

Deerslayer,

For the current scenario list, check this thread

[Tzar007]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: tukker

The advance of KG Peiper is covered. There will also be a "what if" scenario, in which KG Peiper has to establish a bridgehead across the Meuse.
Unfortunately, the capture of supplies can't be simulated by the game engine right now [:(], so raising German fuel levels by capturing a US dump is not possible.

It would be burned by the Belgians anyway [;)] When Peiper was at Stavelot he didn't know about the petrol dump along the road north to Francorchamps. Peiper's orders/plan was to cross the Meuse at Huy which is quite a bit south (and west) from Stavelot so he never tried to go north, nor send recce units in that direction.

The Belgian 5th fusilier battalion thought he would and started to burn the fuel, also blocking the road with it, half a million liters burned, the remaining 3 million were evacuated to the rear. So the movie scene in which the panzer columns are stopped by blazing petrol fires is fiction, but based on some hard facts [;)]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

You know what Peiper said when he was told by Americans interviewers after the war that he had been just a few miles from a huge depot of oil ? He shrugged and said: "You would have no doubt destroyed them anyway" [:)] Which would probably have been the case indeed. Peiper knew it, and he wasn't about to anguish for the rest of his life about these dumps. In any case, finding oil was only one of the many problems he had at that time: a more dangerous threat was the cutoff of his lines and communication with the rest of 6th Panzerarmee at Stavelot by the 30th US Inf. Div...

In any case, I will certainly play the Peiper scenarios first since I really like that guy (check my avatar...) [;)]


Now, coming back to scenario suggestions: I have always wondered what could have happened if Hitler would have authorized (let's say 5 to 6 days after the offensive started) the use of 11th Panzer Division and 10th SS Panzer Division (both in OKW reserve) to break the deadlock at Monschau and punch through the US lines to then move SW towards the Spa/Stavelot area to link up with 1st SS and 12th SS divisions...or perhaps move straight to the Meuse at Eupen or Verviers... Such an action could have collapsed that portion of the front as much as the front in face of Manteuffel's 5th Panzerarmee collapsed in the early days. LXVII Armeekorps, with the help of these two panzer divisions, could have done a lot of damage and made possible for 6th Panzerarmee to reach the Meuse.

Of course, such a scenario would have implied that OKW had succeeded in bringing forward early on both divisions near the front which was not the case historically. But that is pretty much the only assumption you need to make this scenario work. I could envision a scenario where both panzer divisions, suported in part by 272nd and 326th Volksgrenadier divisions to try to punch through lines of 9th and 78th US Inf. Divisions, supported in a frenzy by CCR of 5th Armored Division, and later CCA of 3rd Armored Division, which were historically sent in the Eupen area as reserves just in case something happened there...

Could be a nice 3-5 days long scenario. The main problem I see is that only a combination of map 10 and map 8 could make it work, although we could probably use map 8 alone...What do you think ?

[tukker]

That's a good suggestion. It should be possible to join parts of Map 8 and 10, and it certainly could make an interesting scenario. What do you think, Richard?

Pieter

[simovitch]

Pieter,

Maps 8 & 10 are on the same base elevation, and would join along the common edge without much problem at all.

[Tzar007]

Sounds great ! [:D] If I can be of any help like defining a bit more the scenario and the units that could participate in such a scenario, don't hesitate to PM me. I am currently reading Battle of the Bulge by Parker, I've also got the very detailed Trevor Dupuy's Hitler Last Gamble, as well as a very thorough book on Waffen SS units OOB (the one made by George Nafziger). So I'll be glad to provide any info needed.

And I fired up my old copy of Bulge 44 by HPS during the Xmas vacations to put myself into the BFTB mindset [:)] - BTW, although HPS Panzer Campaigns are very well done from an operational point of view, it is exhausting moving all these units one by one... it takes forever to complete a game, I guess I should be through with the full campaign scenario by the time BFTB is released [;)] 

[RayWolfe]

ORIGINAL: Tzar007
- BTW, although HPS Panzer Campaigns are very well done from an operational point of view, it is exhausting moving all these units one by one... it takes forever to complete a game

The one thing that the HPS games are brilliant for, is the OOB. It is a passion of mine and I have rarely been able to fault them!
Cheers
Ray

[KNac007]

Well, probably not sweated for direct implementation in the game given the sector of the operation is totally different. But the set up and characteristics are very similar to these of the Bulge but smaller in scope, so it would a nice job for any map and scenario maker which is willing to expend the time to research the operation in detail. I'm talking about operation Northwind (or Nordwind in german, heh), which happened aprox. between 31 Dec 44 and 25 Jan 45

Fitting the whole operation in a single map would be hard as the troops involved are not few and game limitations (or computer limitations) would make it difficult to play, but the area of operations is not that big (it could be done in a couple of maps or even in one big map).

The estabs for the operation would be covered by the game topic, maybe only the 6th SS Mountain division would be missing, but I would have to check the exact TOE as probably it would be possible to simulate it with other units estabs, also is a rather rare formation (is the one of two SS mountain divisions in the whole war, the other being 7th).

So, if anyone is there to take the challenge, and if devs could add the rare SS mountain division (maybe it shares the TOE with Wehrmacht units) it could helo a bit more.

[Arjuna]

Andries,
 
Do we already have estabs for an '44 SS Mtn Div and for an SS PG Div ( 17th IIRC )?

[final_drive]

Andries,

Do we already have estabs for an '44 SS Mtn Div and for an SS PG Div ( 17th IIRC )?

Dave,

As both the 6. SS-Gebirgs-Division and 17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. weren't committed in the Ardennes and were the only ones of their division type to have fought on the Western Front, no Estabs for these units have been included (yet).

To replicate the SS-Pz.Gren.Div. only a few extra Estabs would be needed, for the biggest part of it can be built with the Estabs for the SS-Pz.Div.

As to the SS-Geb.Div., it would require more research and data work.

I guess if a Nordwind scenario was to be made, Estabs containing the Flamm-Panzer Hetzer and the Nashorn 88mm SP-Gun would be on the wishlist too.

[Arjuna]

Andries,
 
Please email me with an estimate of the time required to add these. Thanks.

[keystone]

Before Patton moved north he advocated abandoning Bastogne, so that the German thrust would be able to go further. This was so that when he struck north, more German formations could be cut off and destroyed. Any scenario with the Germs in control of Bastogne might be interesting. This does go against any US designer of a Bulge scenario's basic tenet, 'Bastogne must never be given up', but it might be something to take a look at.