For Liberty versus Birth of America

[rowech]

I downloaded both demos and am leaning toward the BoA game. I'm curious if there's anyone who has thoughts as to what game they like better if they tried or even bought both.

[Gibbon]

I thought this question was settled for now...

Birth of America won

[rowech]

I tried to find a thread somewhere and couldn't.  Maybe I just didn't search well.  Just a newcomer though so I'm not sure if it's been settled. 

[Jagger2002]

BOA has a very unique system for simulating the fluid environment of the American Revolution and French Indian Wars. I found it difficult to comprehend the flow of play and achieving objectives at first as it is so different from anything else I have played. Howver once I grasped the system, it is very, very good. I also keep discovering new little details which add to the depth of the game as I continue playing. For such a clean system, the game simulates complex situations extremely well. The AI is one of the best I have seen. Although of course, the ideal is playing PBem.

The development team continues to upgrade the game and is currently bringing it up to ACW standards.

I am very impressed with both the game and the developers. You will have a lot of fun with the game. And once you learn the BOA system, then you have the ACW game to look forward to next.

Having said all of that, I haven't played Liberty....

[ravinhood]

I bought BOA a few weeks ago for me birthday for $14.99 and I said back then it probably wouldn't last very long and end up in the no play shelf space of games I have (and it did for now). I installed it and played the tutorial once, and tried to read the rule book afterwards. The font size they use in the rule book practically makes it impossible for me to read. It's the size of a half or less of one of these letters basically and very hard to read. And reading the License agreement is even more of a laugh since it's half the size of the regular font of the manual if not smaller. And really at only 25 pages it's not much of a manual anyway compared to the likes of Shrapnels DOM III with 295 pages and spiral bound I might add. 
 
At any rate. I tried the tutorial once again and then decided this was not the game for me. I found it boring and dull 'reading' combat results and having to mouse over everything to even know what was suppose to have happened or was going on. They should take a lesson from Shrapnel both in manual production and battle animatiions. DOM III doesn't really have any combat hands on approach, but, it does have battle animations and you can clearly see what's going on without having to mouse over every icon on the battle outcome screen. That also is very direct and to the point shows how many commanders and units you lost and how many the enemy lost. Once again it doesn't put you in a 30 minute survey of what the hell just happpened in that battle like BOA's does. I never saw so much that required mousing over in my life for a battle outcome. Why didn't they just make a damn readout chart of all that instead of having to mouse over it. A direct screen of what happened would have been 100x better. Plus all the dragging and dropping and clicking to build up or tear down army groups makes it feel like an rts game of click click click, click this don't click that, click this after clicking all of the rest and then drag and drop then click on that and drag it on the town and drop lol oh and don't forget to set the stance for every unit on the map if they aren't in this stance then that will happen and if that happens you would lose them and by the time you remember what you were supposed to do with one unit you have forgotten to do it with other units cause you have to go back to clicking and dragging and dropping lol. I just found it tedious just playing the tutorial to tell me enough about the gameplay that I didn't like it.
 
 

[MarkShot]

Ravinhood,

We meet again. Feel free to not like HTTR, COTA, BOA, ... As far as I know, it is not in your nature to like or praise things.

However, you are wrong. There is a high quality updated BOA manual with easy to read fonts available for download from AGEOD's website.

---

Disclosure: I am an AGE Studio beta tester.

In my opinion the choice of game to buy is very much a matter of format. FL uses a traditional hex/turn. BoA uses regions/WEGO (simultaneous execution). For most wargamers, one format or the other tends to dominate among the games which they choose. Of course, beyond format issues, BOA is a product that has received widespread acclaim, beautiful artwork, clean and easy to use UI, and an AI which is continuously being improved.

Demos are available for both games and downloadable manuals are available for both games. So, test drive them both.

---

Back to Ravinhood,

I once asked you why you wasted your time hanging around in the PG forums just to let us know every chance you got that you would not be buying the game we were developing?

Well, I have another question for you, why would you invest your money on a game which long since had a demo? For the amount of time you invested, the demo could have easily allowed you to conclude that you detest the game. It has been available for a long time. Otherwise, why spend money on something and invest so little effort in trying to learn and appreciate the product? I guess money comes much easier to you than it does me. If I buy something, I am generally sure of what I am purchasing and then I will seriously invest my time to make the most of my investment.

You are truly an enigma to me. Nice seeing you again! Be well.

[MarkShot]

Rowech,

Sorry, I just reread (distracted by Ravinhood). I see you got the demos.

Probably good to remember that the soul of both games is really the GC which is a little difficult to fully capture with a demo anyway.

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
However, you are wrong. There is a high quality updated BOA manual with easy to read fonts available for download from AGEOD's website.

Just to put things in perspective. The Matrix Games published version of BOA (available from our e-store) comes with a nice easy readable printed full color manual and also a nice easy readable PDF.

[decaro]

BoA is like New England's weather; if you don't like it, wait a minute and it will change!

I have never seen so many patches released for a game in such a short time, and each patch had a significant impact on gameplay.

BoA @ 1.12a plays nothing like the game I first bought, so maybe ravinhood should just try it again, or wait til BoA Gold.

[ravinhood]

Talk about the game folks, don't worry about what Ravinhood does or why. That's directed at you Mark Shot you BETA tester you. hahahah Also see my post on Dominions III in the General Discussion forum. There's some games I like and praise, although very few of course. BOA is tedious to play plain and simple. If that's the way I see it, that's the way it is. Don't be jealous because every game you like isn't approved by Ravinhood. One things for sure when I do approve a game you know it's good/great. It will have all the elements required to be a great game. Ease of use, not tedious to play, random battle/map generators, above average AI and the constant just one more turn feeling when playing it, and a very well put together printed manual with LARGE font I can read without needing a magnifying glass (pdf manuals will never get my approval). If I can't even get past the tutorial and find fun in that then it's certainly not up to par of a good/great game. Also, as I looked more at the playing pieces it reminded me of a kids game I played back when I was 8 or 9 called POW. You setup these kinds of pieces on either side of a cardboard wall and used cannons with a rubberband mechanism that shot plastic cannon balls over it to try and knock down all your opponents pieces before he did yours. This game would have been a lot more fun had it been like that, we just sit on the edges of the mapboard and shoot the playing pieces over with a computerized cannonball. hahahaha

[themattcurtis]

One things for sure when I do approve a game you know it's good/great. It will have all the elements required to be a great game.

[8|]

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't do either find work as critics. And those who can't offer constructive criticism, well, you can usually find them online. They love their l and o keys.

As far as Birth of America vs. For Liberty...I tried 1848 when it was first offered for free online. I liked it well enough. When I started lookin' at For Liberty, a friend steered me towards BOA instead. I just got the game myself. The referral,the online AARs and the posts I've seen about its AI over at the Wargamer convinced me.

[decaro]

Ease of use, not tedious to play, random battle/map generators, above average AI and the constant just one more turn feeling when playing it ...

BoA has four out of five.

.. and a very well put together printed manual with LARGE font I can read without needing a magnifying glass (pdf manuals will never get my approval).

I downloaded the v 1.09 pdf manual and printed it in color.

[aristoteles]

For me, it has a very well deserved 4 out of 5, one of the best interfaces, enjoyable gameplay I have seen,and the "one more turn" feeling, it´s just a matter ( as it happens with most things in life) to make an effort and learn the way it works, I wouldn´t say so quickly I don´t like something just for the mere fact I don´t understand it.

[ravinhood]

I'd rathter play an old SSI "Sons of Liberty" and its scenarios than this borrringgggg game. Get "For Liberty" instead you'll be glad you did. Least it has tactical battles in it, not this boring drag and drop read what happened in a cubicle box ohhhh looky the numbers I lost 1018 men, he lost 2038 oh boy isn't this exciting. lol

[decaro]

Re tactics: BoA was billed as Grand Strategy, and frankly there's nothing the player can do once the turn commences and a battle occurs. However, the game's "battlemeter" certainly leaves something to be desired.

By the way, is that Veronica Lake? the hair is too short for Harlow.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: aristoteles
... it´s just a matter ( as it happens with most things in life) to make an effort and learn the way it works, I wouldn´t say so quickly I don´t like something just for the mere fact I don´t understand it.

Before I bought BoA, I read several player reviews; either they loved or hated the game, nothing in between. One (negative) player review said that the AI sent his troops into town and then just stayed there. Well, BoA is basically about taking key cities and holding them, or at least retaking them later, so he apparently didn't understand the game or read manual.

[ravinhood]

Yes, and people have to remember I'm giving MY opinion on the game and which game I think is better of the two. I'm not saying BOA is a bad game overall or nobody should buy it. I'm saying I didn't like it and found it boring just playing the tutorial and what I saw of how the game mechanics work. Some people just don't like to accept other peoples opinions or want theirs to drown out others so that their fanboish favortism stands out amongst all as one can see from a few posts after mine. I gave my reasons for not liking it. I see some think I should like it for their reasons or that I didn't read the rule book. Well I did read that sorry teeny weeny font rule book but that didn't change my mind about playing the game at all. It just reinforced what the tutorial showed me. Boring, and too much tedious clicking and messing with stacking, combining, drag and drop, set this stance, set that stance, siege, hide and then look at a boring combat results screen that isn't even complete unless you do a lot of mouse overs. Just bad game design as far as I'm concerned. Not user friendly. It's like an abstract piece of artwork you have to put too much effort into studying it and looking at it before you can see the fine lines or unseen portions of the picture and what it represents. Some people like abstract artwork, I'm just not one of them.

[Jagger2002]

One things for sure when I do approve a game you know it's good/great. It will have all the elements required to be a great game. Ease of use, not tedious to play, random battle/map generators, above average AI and the constant just one more turn feeling when playing it, and a very well put together printed manual with LARGE font I can read without needing a magnifying glass (pdf manuals will never get my approval).

One thing I have learned in life is everyones taste varies. What you think is the greatest cake in the world, others will hate with a passion. Personally I think BOA is one of the most unique, interesting and fun grand tactical/strategic games, I have played over many years. And many reviews agree with me. But I sense you get a bit of personnal satisfaction in your negative reviews-so have fun.

Of course, we have demos for those that won't to try the product before buying.

[Roads]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
look at a boring combat results screen that isn't even complete unless you do a lot of mouse overs.

Most of your complaints are subjective and I jus happen to disagree. But the combat results screen is IMHO very well designed. It's laid out so that at a glance you can tell exactly what forces were engaged, what the losses were, and which factors affected the outcome. It's loaded with information and all that information is immediately accesible so you can figure out what you need to know quickyl. The mouse overs are only there to remind you of what each icon means - they add no real information. I look at them only when something unexpected comes up in a battle.