Observations

[mudrick]

I think this game is excellent, but i've noticed a few things that may need some tuning.


AI is too easy. I've come to the conclusion that no matter what plan I use, no matter what profile is present, I can pretty much score on every possession unless I fumble or get picked off. More on that below. So now I just set up my roster and plays and watch my teams games instead of coach.


Pass plays There are certain pass plays that the AI cannot handle. Clearing a zone is easier said than done in pro football, but typical in games. The DB's should recognize who is going deep and who is not and adjust accordingly. If anything, the short WR should be open.


Run plays There are also some run plays that work no matter what. I 3WL 38 is one of them. A simple pitch out of the I formation. The only explination I have is two fold. The defenders over persue and the DL have no persuit once engaged. In this game, that is the only run play you'll ever need. There are a few more like it, they all hit the same spot.

Now i'm not a programmer so I do not know how hard this stuff is. But if this game has come this far, anything is possible.

[Tullius]

Gary`s AI Test


and see my comments about playbooks in this subforum.

[mudrick]

Where are your comments about playbooks?
 
I have hack's plays and plans.  They are excellent.  But If I use Brown or Williams playbooks, I can pretty much score on every possession.  Goode is a good plan to be somewhat competative with the AI, but only because it contains plays that do not take too much advantage of the AI. 
 
My obsevations were considering all plays. 
 
For example.  If you have on the left side 2 WR's and on defense a short zone and a slightly deeper zone, one WR should not be able to clear the zone and allow the other to run free on a deep pattern.  Somehow the game needs to recognize this or else zones will become useless.  Unless of course you do not include plays that take advantage of it. 
 
For example.  2 WR on the one side, again, say the left.  The outside WR goes up and in.  The WR in slot runs parallel to the LOS and up.  He's usually left wide open. 

[Tullius]

Do you coach or do you play yourself ?

[mudrick]

I coach.  I call the plays.  I do not control players if that is what you mean.

[Marauders]

It's not always that the plays are unbeatable; it is often that there isn't a group of defensive plays set up to counter it.
 

[Marauders]

Run plays There are also some run plays that work no matter what. I 3WL 38 is one of them. A simple pitch out of the I formation. The only explination I have is two fold. The defenders over persue and the DL have no persuit once engaged. In this game, that is the only run play you'll ever need. There are a few more like it, they all hit the same spot.

Hmmm, I just went into the PDS and practiced this play for about 15 minutes against about a dozen defensive plays, and the average carry was about two yards.  I saw some six and ten yard gains, but I also saw no gain, two yard gains, and stuffs.

I tested against the updated default Fun n Gun defenses.

[Old Coach]

If I 3WL 38 is the play that I drew up way back when we were still using version 1 of the PDS, it was meant to be a run off left tackle. I don't recall it being unstoppable. I have similar plays in the playbooks I use and they have varying levels of success. It all depend on what defense the play is being run and the quality of players running the play. I haven't used any of the stock play books in a LONG time. I use only my custom stuff now. Most of my work as a beta tester was with the PDS and testing how player ratings effect gameplay.

Old Coach

[mudrick]

Marauders, play a practice game.  You will see that you can run that play exclusively and score a TD.  Just keep alternating sides. 
 
Now I do not think the play is inherently unstoppable, I just think the pursuit is flawed regarding plays like this one and others similar to it.

[Tullius]

You will see that you can run that play exclusively and score a TD.

I have done it in the PDS using tow different defensive play (stock playbook) and played I 3 W L 38 many times.

Result: No Touchdowns, against a 3-4 defending the pass good gains (3-15 yards) and against special run defenses mixed success even some tackles for loses.

I would like to see your gamelog.

[mudrick]

Look, I don't know what you are talking about.  The PDS?  The play creator? 
 
I never said it scores a TD on every play.  Forget the play editor and take two teams and play a "quick game".  Use that run play.  Then flip it and run it again, then rinse and repeat.  You will score a TD. 
 
Now if your RB gets tired or you fumble, obviously you will not.  Make sure your RB is fresh and you will see.

[Tullius]

I have made a test in a default league game. I got a TD after 14 plays and gaining 75 yards. A picture is attached. The opponent was Chicago (league game) and this team uses the Pro Passing 42def.pbk. Chicago was every time in a Nickle formation (4 DL and 2 LB) and the AI coach could select only between 4 plays (13 defensive plays are in the entire playbook, + 3 GL plays) because only 4 plays are assigned for a 2 WR,2 RB and 1TE offensive formation.

What that test shows: a solid playbook is a must to have realistic results and a bad playbook cripples the AI. (And imo the LB`s and DL`s have too low standart ratings).

The default leagues should not have released in this way.

[mudrick]

Funny, I was about to post.  I just ran the play against fun and gun playbook.  Left, right, left, right and so on, and in 14 plays i scored a TD.

The only place I would disagree is that I think it is an AI problem.

[Tullius]

I have played against a Hack playbook and here the things were more different. There were tackle for losses and sometimes a big run. The problem of the play is the effective blocking and this is imo a rating and adjustment iussue. There is a constant file in the game which allows you to adjust some parameters like Blocking and Defense_ReadTime.

[mudrick]

You are correct.  Some of the hack D's stopped it.  Well, Brown stopped it, Williams did not.  It could just be coincidence, I don't know.
 
Problem I see, is that it has more to do with design than player talent.  There are more run plays like this and plenty of pass plays as well.  I can never seem to find a happy medium.  But one thing I will say for this game.  If you are watching the game, it is excellent.  But coaching is still too easy.  I'm still not totally sure if h2h would be any better.

[Tullius]

But the ratings are still a main problem. OLB are slower than ILB and Strong Safties have a very low rating for Block Avoidance. OLB are only a little bit faster than OL.

[simmer]

edit the player skills using JD's editor.....then edit the constraint file....Dont be afraid to turn the player attributes up alot and then find a balance. This takes time to find a happy medium with offense and defense posistions. In my opinion David was off on alot of player positions. Just make sure that you distribute the attributes in an even range with the global editor. You will get the desired results.
One thing I would like to add use JD's 1.7 editor. This enables you to make the OL over 300 lbs and DL 280+ pounds

[Tullius]

I made a "hot fix" and changed in the constant file 2 entries:

Blocking Base Line = 0.2
Defense_ReadBaseTime=1

The result was that the show was very different. Some DL could beat the OL and the RB was more often tackled in his own backfield. Only a penalty helped me to save the series and after a first down i faced then a 3rd and long and my RB fumbled (in the backfield). On the other side passing was still effective (Coach Williams showed it). But this area requires more much more attentions and my settings were only tests to examine a theory and no recommendation.

[Tullius]

Using the experimental settings i repeated the first game (Tampa had here a 75 yard drive for a TD). Now the picture was totally different. 14 plays and only 25 yards.

[Marauders]

ORIGINAL: mudrick

Funny, I was about to post. I just ran the play against fun and gun playbook. Left, right, left, right and so on, and in 14 plays i scored a TD.

The only place I would disagree is that I think it is an AI problem.

The old Fun and Gun offenses were created before the game when gold, and most of the defenses were created just before going gold. They were not updated in the game after the depth charts went to 2.0. The other default playbooks were not complete, in my opinion, when they were added to the game.

The Fun and Gun playbook in the game is not the updated Fun and Gun playbook. I used the updated Fun and Gun playbook defensive plays to test this. I'll try it out in a test game.

Perhaps the updated playbook will make it into the game, perhaps it will not. It isn't my call. That same goes for an update of other default playbooks.