GRENDEL, WAS: Stuff to think about for the NEXT game.

[lancerunolfsson]

Stuff to think about for the NEXT game.


I'm not a Barbarosa guy. Give me a Strategic WWII game and I'll take the Allies in 1939 every time. Here are a few anomalies I saw in my first play through of WWII RTV. These are thoughts related to not a patch because they probably involve major engine tampering but for the next game. The events related are from the game i played through.

1] Germans sure did not seem to mind much that the French were taking German cities before Poland fell.
Might i suggest a series of geographically tied events that cause at least some rapid transfer by the AI of Germans to the West front If the French come out of the Maginot line in a serious way before Poland falls. From a Strategic stand point (game wise) Finishing off Poland was the right thing for the German AI to do. BUT I'm thinking Hitler might have been a little concerned about showing up at the office on the morning that 3 German cities were occupied by the Allies in 1939;^)

So Maybe German unrest level should go way up when the Fatherland has hostiles on its soil. I think a big reason the war lasted in life as long as it did was because the Staufenberg plot upon its failure caused Hitler to do some major house cleaning. Maybe this would be true of coups in general they are a lot more possible until the first one fails.

2] Now don't get me wrong I love that the diplomacy model lets some weird stuff happen And I can almost see a scenario that rationalizes Denmark Joining the allies after the fall of Poland. But I'm Guessing they would have needed an allied army on the boats and on the way to actually do it. So I'm thinking that individual nations should probably be effected by some sort of Foreign force, proximity as either threat or support.

3] Back to Poland, I'm thinking The french should have enjoyed a big bump on their diplomacy factor when they actually invaded Germany before Poland fell. Sort of an "Oh these guys really mean business this time" bonus!

4] the points required to effect diplomatic events seemed to stay static during the game regardless of the strategic situation. The two should be related in other words Hungary should NOT Join the AXIS with Germany already defeated and Allied armies in Piedmont. Not to mention a huge Russian army sitting on the Hungarian Border.

5] Related to above, Germany falling should probably trigger a Coup de tat or two in axis or axis leaning countries. and uncommitted allied leaning should become much easier to get to come over to the allies. (inversely France falling should have the same effect for the axis.) Slovakia stayed in the War for 6 months after Germany surrendered in my game! This is also a comment on the AI the Russians took that long to getting around to taking the Slovac Capital! (under AI control)

6] I'm guessing if The Belgians and Dutch have most of their Countries liberated and only a German force under siege in the capital they might cough up a division or two pretty quick.

7] Side Shows if the Strategic situation is That Germany is under water and Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania and Yugoslavia are not yet at war then there should be at least a chance for these guys to start settling their border disputes by force of arms.

8] Generally I think Italy was way too tough in my game held out for nearly a year after Germany surrendered. The Italian Army that invaded franc in 1940 in my game sure seemed to be bigger and better than the French Army. Normaly Itally is to weak but I think the opposite with this game.

9] With Germany out, I am not sure how much energy the U.S. would have put in to Europe. By the time I took control away from the AI for the U.S.. The U.S. had 2x as man units in Africa as the French and Brit and almost as many in Italy. Berlin Fell before the Pearl Harbor event though the Germans fought on for quite a while afterwards (mostly Garrisons under siege).

Finlay I don't want to see the diplomacy go historical script that would make less sense. But I'm thinking with some tweaking and making events more closely related to the situation on the ground it could be a lot better. I think you guys have really put out a winner here. (don't switch to squares instead of hexes in the second edition;^)

[cpdeyoung]

Excellent points.

I find the Germans do react to French attacks pretty soon, but not before the French put a hurt on some PP cities, and that resource center is sweet!

The diplomatic events are skewed in the manner you describe, and I never seem to be able to get Italy in the game as soon as the AI does. I also wonder where in heck the minor Axis allies get those air forces. When I am playing them I never have the PP to build big stuff.

I have been playing with Great Britain taking over the defense of southern France. The French head north and they give the Germans fits! I played one yesterday where they held the Axis back till the USSR attacked, and by then it was a race to take Berlin. This was with my playing the Allies, including Poland, the Netherlands, and Belgium. The British had no trouble holding the Italians in the southern mountains, and defeating them in Africa, then it was off to the races. The Axis could not do a thing right. I am trying it again tonight in a game I call "Grendle" with the Germans and Soviets +50% PP.

Chuck

[cpdeyoung]

"Grendle" is not going well for the Axis. The Italians have lost North Africa. They are stimied in the southern mountains. The British are pouring their mobile forces across the Med into South France, and beyond. The French are about to retake Luxembourg, and the only city they have lost is Lille. The British have a solid line of level two infantry corps from in front of Le Harve to in front of Paris, where the French take over with corps of their own. There are no Axis naval forces to notice, while the French and Royal Navy are in excellent shape.

This is with +50% for the Germans. They do not want to know what the Soviets have done with the +50% they have enjoyed. Let's just say the Soviets will not bother to move any industries east. It is February 1941, and this is a disaster for the Axis. Next "Grendle" will give the Germans +100% PP bonus.

Chuck

PS : I let the Germans have a turn to snap the picture, and they put that hole in the British line, but GB can fill it handily.

[doomtrader]

l[font="times new roman"]ancerunolfsson[/font], great post indeed.[font=arial]
At the beginning, I would like to let you know that some quite major changes are coming for the next update, but of course we are thinking about the next game.
Let's move to the points.
1) You are completly right. Hitler most probably will be very disappointed, but I think that after loosing few cities (and some PP with that), it would be a real pain to decrease it even more. However I was thinking about such events for all the major cities, not only in Germany.
2) That's a really nice idea, I think it could be handled trough event's. Of course UK should decide is it worth to.
3) Right, will try to balance it.
4) Right, I'm going to revise all the events for the next update so the triggers and effects should be better balanced.
5) Maybe the Russians thought it's not so important to take over Slovakian capital. But you are right it miight be wise to do something with puppets when the master is already gone.
6) This one might be hard to implement.
7) Are you thinking about war between those countries, or about attacking Germany by them?
8) Whole OOB is going to be revised for next update.
9) So you say, that US is too strong? Personaly I do agree that they shouldn't be able to force too many units before the time will come.
 
We will stay with hexes. [/font]

[lancerunolfsson]

Thanks for your reply Doom

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

< BIG SNIP >
6) This one might be hard to implement.
7) Are you thinking about war between those countries, or about attacking Germany by them?
8) Whole OOB is going to be revised for next update.
9) So you say, that US is too strong? Personaly I do agree that they shouldn't be able to force too many units before the time will come.

We will stay with hexes. [/size][/font]

#6 yes I can see that would be very hard. And maybe even rejoining the game If the Capital is liberated to much trouble.

#7 yes I was thinking of those countries possibly fighting each other(they hated each other in some cases fought before the big war). But of course I can see problems there to. Doubt they would attack Germany on their own. But if Germany falls or is doing poorly there might be a possibility of shifting toward the allies and becoming easier for the allies to exert diplomatic pressure on.

#8 hmm might think of varaiable OB's. forinstance "Historical" or "Ballanced" Choice.

#9 no not saying US to strong Saying that US might not send so many troops if AXIS are already in bad shape. I think it would have been a hard sell in US public opininion to do Germany first strategy if the French and British and Russians are already fighting on German soil

Might also make pregame menu to turn possibility of events on or off. For instance for instance with "Pearl Harbor" off no chance of US entering war. Germany declares war on Russia and vice verse able to turn off. etc

Another possibility to change alliances before game starts. Though i think you may have that already as possibility by altering text files. In data folder?

Thanks for a nice game!

[lancerunolfsson]

ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung

This is with +50% for the Germans. They do not want to know what the Soviets have done with the +50% they have enjoyed. Let's just say the Soviets will not bother to move any industries east. It is February 1941, and this is a disaster for the Axis. Next "Grendle" will give the Germans +100% PP bonus.

Chuck

You are better at this for some reason My zipped game save won't upload funy cause it di on another post. The dialouge say saved game 3 not supported. Hmm when I stop playing next I will tell you where I am.

[cpdeyoung]

Good morning Lance,

Uploading a picture, jpg format, is straightfoward. Use the "Post reply" button so you get the "Click here to upload!" link. Use the "browse" to find your jpg, upload it, and then check the "Embed picture in post". A zip file is trickier as the file must be renamed. I usually rename the extension to .txt, and then upload it, of course, avoiding the embedding.

Tonight I will be doing a "Grendle" with +100% PP for the Germans. I want to see if the Germans can win the "World War I" that the Allies have managed to establish. I may remove the +50% PP for the Soviets.

Chuck

[Severian]

#8 hmm might think of varaiable OB's. forinstance "Historical" or "Ballanced" Choice.

I'm actually responsible for RTV OoB and I'm doing it historically. I hope so to do sth like in Poland 1939 WI scenario, where we have done pretty good job with Doomtrader

[lancerunolfsson]

I hope so to do sth like in Poland 1939 W

Nice thanks

[lancerunolfsson]

OK Chuck

Here is the saved game I tried to pu up last night extension chaned to .txt so just name it back I think your screen shot is from a later phase of the game than my save

[cpdeyoung]

Good evening Lance,

Thanks for the game to look at. I am at the same point in Grendle2 as I was in Grendle last night. In this one the Germans have +100PP and the Soviets have +50PP. The Germans are doing better, but the map does not really reflect it. They still have not taken any city but Lille, but the British have had to put much more in France and have not taken North Africa yet. The Italians are not being aggressive anywhere, but the Germans are causing casualities to British and French. I still do not know if they can capture France from me in time. The Soviets are strong and ready for attack with lots of Tank Corps amd motorized. This is much more fun than last night.

I will look at your game as soon as I get a break. In Grendle2 I am at 2/16/1941.

Chuck

[cpdeyoung]

Dear Lance,

I can see why you wondered about the Germans reacting to Alied attacks! What the heck did the Germans do after Poland? I can not believe you have gotten so deep into Germany in July 1940. I have done very well attacking with the Allies, but this is something else. Are you playing with normal PP schedules?

I took a snap so anyone else can see what your Allies have accomplished.

Chuck

[lancerunolfsson]

Thank you I assumed everybody els was doing better than I I here is game end file (I consider No active axis a victory I don't feel like fighting russians or declaring war on Neutrals.


Yes I am using the normal no + or - either side production points. The AI builds too many strong units.This means they have nothing to maintain a front they can be overwhelmed by sacrificing divisions to begin encirclements. Initially I am biting my nails. because encircling also means allowing deep penetrations by aggressor force. The trick is to keep as many Germans out of supply at the beginning of the German turn as possible. Even if I know they will break out easy. It destroys their ability to attack. Eventually there will be German groups that can be compartment ed from each other. So some will be out of supply at the beginning of the Allied turn. Of course none of this can be done to a Human player of reasonable competence. But it is still fun;^)

In this game the Germans never push much at the west front while Poland is still active. But I play the Poles very poorly I can not get the hang of what they should do so the germans always get Early Poland victory message.

[Mickrocks201]

ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung

Good evening Lance,

Thanks for the game to look at. I am at the same point in Grendle2 as I was in Grendle last night. In this one the Germans have +100PP and the Soviets have +50PP. The Germans are doing better, but the map does not really reflect it. They still have not taken any city but Lille, but the British have had to put much more in France and have not taken North Africa yet. The Italians are not being aggressive anywhere, but the Germans are causing casualities to British and French. I still do not know if they can capture France from me in time. The Soviets are strong and ready for attack with lots of Tank Corps amd motorized. This is much more fun than last night.

I will look at your game as soon as I get a break. In Grendle2 I am at 2/16/1941.

Chuck

[font="Arial"]Chuck,

I did try your Grendle2 setup. The Germans did take Lille and cause some moderate damage to the allies for a few turns, but then settled in and stopped attacking anywhere. Italy never did anything much more than rush to the border and sit. Was able to clear out Trobuk with the Brits without much effort.

Not sure what the AI engine figures on doing, but you would figure it should be at least able to conduct the French campaign with some effect. I think the whole message here is just how much of a wus the AI really is attacking - even giving them the maximum advantages allowed. Not much fun at all [:@]

Mick[/font]

[cpdeyoung]

In my Grendle2 the Germans were steadily making attacks, and wearing down the British and France.&nbsp; In June/July 1941 they were beginning to threaten Paris, Le Harve, and Metz, but then the East Front flared up, and all was put on hold in the West as the Soviets were on the prowl.&nbsp; I agree the Germans need to be much more aggressive, take some losses, and really put pressure on the Allies, because WWI is not going to go well for them.&nbsp; My USSR is not the Czar's army!
&nbsp;
The Italians have a tough task in the south of France as those hills make for excellent defensive positions.&nbsp; The AI needs to be able to evaluate this situation, and shift some forces to North Africa.&nbsp; It is very hard to write a great AI.&nbsp; Perhaps allowing the Italians a boost in PP in Grendle3!&nbsp; I think the aggression factor in the AI is a recognised issue.
&nbsp;
I think if&nbsp;we "F1" and give the Germans and Italians a hand for a turn or two we will have a lot more fun.&nbsp; I don't love doing this, but fun is fun, and my Jugoslavs and Greeks were so ready for defense!
&nbsp;
Chuck

[cpdeyoung]

I went into a 19410101 save point and tried an attack on the Franco-British position in the north. That is a very hard nut to crack. I do not think I could do much better than the AI did. If you let the British and French get a Corps strength line you are in real trouble. Every attack requires air assistance, which means high expense. Even at 200% PP I think the only chance the Germans have is to defeat this defense is to go very hard as soon as Poland is taken.

Of course I am "cheating" by denuding Great Britain of all military units. A valuable house rule at this point would perhaps be to require a unit in every city, and at least a level two division in every port. I know the AI will not attack Great Britain, but any good human certainly would. This would still allow the British to help the French, but not to establish an invulnerable line.

I think I will try this tonight.

Chuck

[cpdeyoung]

I am at 2/16/1941 in the newest test of "Grendle". The Germans are at +100% PP, the Soviets at +50% PP, and the British are under "house rule" to garrison each city in Great Britain, and each port there must have at least a level two infantry division. The Gremans have been much more aggressive, but still have not broken through. The south of France seems safe for the Allies. The Germans have caused 75.14 strength points in losses to the French, at a cost of 48.88 of their own. There have been losses given and taken by the British also, but the double wall of units the Allies have built up looks like it will hold long enough for the USSR to get involved before France falls.

This looks a lot like World War One, and, of course, this is what the British and French expect of their strategy. I suspect the answer is to "Fix" the British units, even more than what is accomplished by the operative"house rule" in this case.

Chuck

[lancerunolfsson]

Hmm I kind of like WWI!