AFB Request: Hellcat

[Chad Harrison]

Looking for some AFB love once again [:D]

We have yet to see a screenshot of the F6F Hellcat, and I am very curious to see what the ranges (correct now I assume) are with and without drop tanks. Also, I know how much Andy loved the production rate of the F6F in stock, so I am curious what it is now?

I just read that we produced 11,000 of them in two years! [X(]

Humble requests of the collective AE team:

1. Similar to what was posted for the A6M in an AAR, can we get a screenshot of the F6F with and without drop tanks?
2. Whether by screenshot, or just text, can we get a peek at the production rate(s) for the various models of the Hellcat?

Thanks in advance as always!

Chad

[Yamato hugger]

There arent any. Dont need no stinkin Hellcats.

[Erik Rutins]

We'll see what we can do, Chad.

[Andy Mac]

Chad you had to ask and set me off didnt you !!!!
 
OK 15 months worth of F6F 3's c 2,000 total
18 months worth of F6F 5's about 3,200 total
 
About 1,300 arrive aboard Sqns
 
So total of the main marks that are deployable about 6,500 plus probably another 5 - 700 of various other marks of FAA variants , Recon variants etc etc
 
NF Variants aout another 1,000 probably
 
So about 8,000 available of all marks.

[Erik Rutins]

And here are a couple of pics from the database... #1

[Erik Rutins]

... and #2.

[asdicus]

Erik. Thanks for the data on the F6F3 Hellcat.
 
Using ref America's Hundred Thousand by Francis Dean ( probably the definitive book on usa fighters ww2) I would like to query the following:
 
Availability start 4/43 - Dean quotes production in 1943 of 12(jan), 35(feb), 81(mar), 131(april), 150(may) rising to 458(dec). Does this not suggest that game availability should be earlier say march not april 43 ? The first planes were issued to the uss essex in jan 43.
 
Mvr - rating of 16. Not sure how this figure works in AE but I do note that early war planes eg wildcat seem to have much higher mvr ratings. Why ? According to Dean the Hellcat ( thanks to large wing and moderate wing loading ) was superior in maneuvering to all other late war usa fighters except the p-63.

[Chad Harrison]

Post question at work, leave work, come home, put kids to bed, and *boom*! AE team delivers!
 
As always, thanks again for the post.
 
You know, us AFB need some lovin too [:D]
 
Thanks again.
 
Chad

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: asdicus

Erik. Thanks for the data on the F6F3 Hellcat.

Using ref America's Hundred Thousand by Francis Dean ( probably the definitive book on usa fighters ww2) I would like to query the following:

Availability start 4/43 - Dean quotes production in 1943 of 12(jan), 35(feb), 81(mar), 131(april), 150(may) rising to 458(dec). Does this not suggest that game availability should be earlier say march not april 43 ? The first planes were issued to the uss essex in jan 43.

Mvr - rating of 16. Not sure how this figure works in AE but I do note that early war planes eg wildcat seem to have much higher mvr ratings. Why ? According to Dean the Hellcat ( thanks to large wing and moderate wing loading ) was superior in maneuvering to all other late war usa fighters except the p-63.

The first F6F's did not "get issued to the USS Essex in January 1943". They got issued to VF-9, which carrier qualified with them in February and March (at Norfolk), and did not deploy to the Pacific with the Essex until May. The combat debut of the aircraft was in August.

The data we use is correct and proper.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: asdicus

Erik. Thanks for the data on the F6F3 Hellcat.

Using ref America's Hundred Thousand by Francis Dean ( probably the definitive book on usa fighters ww2) I would like to query the following:

Availability start 4/43 - Dean quotes production in 1943 of 12(jan), 35(feb), 81(mar), 131(april), 150(may) rising to 458(dec). Does this not suggest that game availability should be earlier say march not april 43 ? The first planes were issued to the uss essex in jan 43.

Mvr - rating of 16. Not sure how this figure works in AE but I do note that early war planes eg wildcat seem to have much higher mvr ratings. Why ? According to Dean the Hellcat ( thanks to large wing and moderate wing loading ) was superior in maneuvering to all other late war usa fighters except the p-63.

Thomas will have to answer #1. But I presume the date has to do with the date that the F6F became operational hence would lead the "on map" date to be a bit later than the actual production date. Remember the game doesn't simulate the introduction of a type, ie. the work up of the first squadron to "fleet" status. This might explain the discrepancy.

As to # 2: The code is different. My philosophy was to give the A/C the ratings that they warranted based on real world data. In this case the code can give the F6F a Normalized or Adjusted MVR of 32. In essence if an opponent falls victim to the Hellcats higher top speed that opponent could see it's Instantaneous MVR reduced by half. So for example, at 25k' the A6M5 Zeke has a MVR of 23. The Hellcat is 14. If the hellcats speed check is high enough the Zeke could see it's MVR halved to 11.5, That yields a 2.5 MVR advantage over the Zeke. Throw in an historical EXP delta and the game results should be pretty close to RL.

[Cathartes]

The production availability of aircraft and there integration into front line units shows a realistic delay for the Allies. The Hellcat is a great example.  Early war for Allies you will see the same issue with the F4F-3 to F4F-4 transition.

You will see the Hellcats start showing up with the Essex class carriers in mid-'43, as early Hellcat production was prioritized for use on these carriers, going to their relevant VFs for training. April '43 is pretty realistic for in-game, and maybe even a bit too early. You could probably beat their historical combat debut in AE by a good amount of time if you wanted to.

[RevRick]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: asdicus

Erik. Thanks for the data on the F6F3 Hellcat.

Using ref America's Hundred Thousand by Francis Dean ( probably the definitive book on usa fighters ww2) I would like to query the following:

Availability start 4/43 - Dean quotes production in 1943 of 12(jan), 35(feb), 81(mar), 131(april), 150(may) rising to 458(dec). Does this not suggest that game availability should be earlier say march not april 43 ? The first planes were issued to the uss essex in jan 43.

Mvr - rating of 16. Not sure how this figure works in AE but I do note that early war planes eg wildcat seem to have much higher mvr ratings. Why ? According to Dean the Hellcat ( thanks to large wing and moderate wing loading ) was superior in maneuvering to all other late war usa fighters except the p-63.

Thomas will have to answer #1. But I presume the date has to do with the date that the F6F became operational hence would lead the "on map" date to be a bit later than the actual production date. Remember the game doesn't simulate the introduction of a type, ie. the work up of the first squadron to "fleet" status. This might explain the discrepancy.

As to # 2: The code is different. My philosophy was to give the A/C the ratings that they warranted based on real world data. In this case the code can give the F6F a Normalized or Adjusted MVR of 32. In essence if an opponent falls victim to the Hellcats higher top speed that opponent could see it's Instantaneous MVR reduced by half. So for example, at 25k' the A6M5 Zeke has a MVR of 23. The Hellcat is 14. If the hellcats speed check is high enough the Zeke could see it's MVR halved to 11.5, That yields a 2.5 MVR advantage over the Zeke. Throw in an historical EXP delta and the game results should be pretty close to RL.

Elf, I don't understand anything of what you have said. I don't have your experience and training, nor your scientific ability - but I just can't see this at all. And that worries me. I have read and heard (some of it apocryphal) in the dim recesses of memory of Hellcats dogfighting Mustangs and giving them fits, yet in this case, it seems that the Hellcat is at a distinct disadvantage against the successor to the plane the Cat was (purportedly) designed to beat. What in the name of pluperfect purgatory Gives????? I may just be too ignorant to understand all of this but this just doesn't make sense. The Hellcat (and the Corsair) couldn't outmaneuver a F4F-3! EGAD!!! What did we use to win the war - voodoo?

[2ndACR]

I will wait and see, but this just looks wrong........sorry. Note I said "looks" wrong......but I have been looking at WITP since release, so am used to seeing late war allied fighters in the 30's mvr wise.
 
Why is there a exact double of the F4U-1D? I can see the different versions, but this a/c is exactly the same in the screen shot.
 
 

[Terminus]

It's not wrong, believe me. Air combat has been completely rewritten, and it's better than it was.

[sspahr]

Are you going to publish the formula you're using to calculate maneuver ratings.  I'm surprised to see the Corsair rated higher than the Hellcat.

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I will wait and see, but this just looks wrong........sorry. Note I said "looks" wrong......but I have been looking at WITP since release, so am used to seeing late war allied fighters in the 30's mvr wise.

Why is there a exact double of the F4U-1D? I can see the different versions, but this a/c is exactly the same in the screen shot.

The extra F4U-1D is the RNZAF one.

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: RevRick

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: asdicus

Erik. Thanks for the data on the F6F3 Hellcat.

Using ref America's Hundred Thousand by Francis Dean ( probably the definitive book on usa fighters ww2) I would like to query the following:

Availability start 4/43 - Dean quotes production in 1943 of 12(jan), 35(feb), 81(mar), 131(april), 150(may) rising to 458(dec). Does this not suggest that game availability should be earlier say march not april 43 ? The first planes were issued to the uss essex in jan 43.

Mvr - rating of 16. Not sure how this figure works in AE but I do note that early war planes eg wildcat seem to have much higher mvr ratings. Why ? According to Dean the Hellcat ( thanks to large wing and moderate wing loading ) was superior in maneuvering to all other late war usa fighters except the p-63.

Thomas will have to answer #1. But I presume the date has to do with the date that the F6F became operational hence would lead the "on map" date to be a bit later than the actual production date. Remember the game doesn't simulate the introduction of a type, ie. the work up of the first squadron to "fleet" status. This might explain the discrepancy.

As to # 2: The code is different. My philosophy was to give the A/C the ratings that they warranted based on real world data. In this case the code can give the F6F a Normalized or Adjusted MVR of 32. In essence if an opponent falls victim to the Hellcats higher top speed that opponent could see it's Instantaneous MVR reduced by half. So for example, at 25k' the A6M5 Zeke has a MVR of 23. The Hellcat is 14. If the hellcats speed check is high enough the Zeke could see it's MVR halved to 11.5, That yields a 2.5 MVR advantage over the Zeke. Throw in an historical EXP delta and the game results should be pretty close to RL.

Elf, I don't understand anything of what you have said. I don't have your experience and training, nor your scientific ability - but I just can't see this at all. And that worries me. I have read and heard (some of it apocryphal) in the dim recesses of memory of Hellcats dogfighting Mustangs and giving them fits, yet in this case, it seems that the Hellcat is at a distinct disadvantage against the successor to the plane the Cat was (purportedly) designed to beat. What in the name of pluperfect purgatory Gives????? I may just be too ignorant to understand all of this but this just doesn't make sense. The Hellcat (and the Corsair) couldn't outmaneuver a F4F-3! EGAD!!! What did we use to win the war - voodoo?

Actually, Reverend, he's saying the exact opposite. The basic data says 16 mvr, and the code does the rest. It's all in the checks the code does. If the Hellcat passes all it's checks, it has a 32 to 11.5 mvr advantage and will splash the Zero. Similarly, if the Zero passes all its checks, it will splash the Hellcat.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I will wait and see, but this just looks wrong........sorry. Note I said "looks" wrong......but I have been looking at WITP since release, so am used to seeing late war allied fighters in the 30's mvr wise.

Why is there a exact double of the F4U-1D? I can see the different versions, but this a/c is exactly the same in the screen shot.

First it is obvious that AE is using a different computational scheme. As to the wrong, no not really. Assuming maneuvabiltyis mostly related to the turning battle, look at some numbers related to wing loading and power ratio. Wing loading is how many pounds of aircraft each sq ft of wing is holding up. Power ratio is how many pounds of aircraft each BHP is pushing around. All this numbers assume a CAP/Escort load

F4F: wing loading 26.5 lb/sq ft, power ratio 6.9 lb/BHP
F6F: wing loading 34.1 lb/sq ft, power ratio 5.7 lb/BHP
F4U: wing loading 38.3 lb/sq ft, power ratio 5.35 lb/BHP

A6M
Model 21: wing loading 22.0, power ratio 5.5 lb/BHP
Model 52: wing loading 26.23, power ratio 5.28

In simplest terms wingloading determines how much drag is induced in a turn and power ratio speaks to how well the aircrafts engine can overcome this drag. Contrary to popular belief, the Allied late war fighters could not stay in a sustained turning fight with their Japanese counterparts. AH. but air combat is in three dimensions not two. Here is where the Allied fighters had the advantage. Not only did they have higher top speeds but the had as odd as it seems a weight advantage. Weight (well mass really) is a very important factor in determining things like momentum and inertia. Fighter pilots call these phenomenae "energy". The USN planes (even the F4F) were better at building up and then ultimately using "energy".

One last thing. The F6F had a notorious poor roll rate at high speeds. This was not true of the F4U. This has to play into the Maneuver Rating too.

So, if I understand what The Elf said, AE ATA combat will give the USN flyboys a random chance to see if they can put their speed/energy advantage to use in combat. If they fail, it means our wily Japanese pilot has suckered the US pilot into a battle on his terms. If you have read Baa Baa Black Sheep, you will know this is exactly how Boyington got shot down - he ran out of speed and energy

[Terminus]

Correct.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: sspahr

Are you going to publish the formula you're using to calculate maneuver ratings.  I'm surprised to see the Corsair rated higher than the Hellcat.

Not likely...[;)]