Version R Changes
Download at http://www.advancedtactics.org/scenario.php?nr=82
Feature Changes
Soviet Siberian Factories (created after GE defeats major SU cities) now able to build everything except PP and ships
Extra supply to SU in winter when awake but not at war reduced
Glasgow eliminated as resource center for UK
SU Aid to China goes directly to Chungking, but requires China to control Urumchi and Lanzhou
Fixes
West able to give aid to Soviet Union only after SU at war with GE
Northern Blitz messages not repeating
Check PP in France Card working properly
Long Range Fighter I no longer upgradeable to Long Range Fighter II
SU Far East HQ given Stavka as its HQ instead of no HQ
WaW Revised Version R Available
Moderator: Vic
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british exil
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 6:26 pm
- Location: Lower Saxony Germany
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
Playing PBEM as Axis. Started game with Q version.
Replayed opening turn with Q fixed patch, only to read that R is now available.
Have asked Allied player if we should replay 1st turn again.
You got any more tricks up your arm explorer?
Just keep up the good work, but take your time. I'd like to play the 2nd turn.[:D]
Replayed opening turn with Q fixed patch, only to read that R is now available.
Have asked Allied player if we should replay 1st turn again.
You got any more tricks up your arm explorer?
Just keep up the good work, but take your time. I'd like to play the 2nd turn.[:D]
"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill
WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS
WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
Since it's just one turn, and you're going to be at it quite awhile, I would do it again.
One new feature coming in next day or so I expect is France Frozen Option, where France is asleep until Germany invades. Trying to make it an option you can choose at game start. Having some trouble making it work in all the possible different situations.
You choose if you want to wait for that or not.
No other bugs/errors, etc. have been reported.
One new feature coming in next day or so I expect is France Frozen Option, where France is asleep until Germany invades. Trying to make it an option you can choose at game start. Having some trouble making it work in all the possible different situations.
You choose if you want to wait for that or not.
No other bugs/errors, etc. have been reported.
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HamburgerHill
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:23 pm
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
Sound like some solid changes.
For the record... In the game Apren and I were playing the Battle for the Atlantic was perfect as was the Battle for North Africa. Both were a constant see saw battle with one side gaining advantage then losing it to the other then back again.
I'm not sure what the problems were with Soviets since I was playing Axis but I did seem to be having an easy go of it, and it felt as though i was going to overun them in short order.
Nice work thanx
For the record... In the game Apren and I were playing the Battle for the Atlantic was perfect as was the Battle for North Africa. Both were a constant see saw battle with one side gaining advantage then losing it to the other then back again.
I'm not sure what the problems were with Soviets since I was playing Axis but I did seem to be having an easy go of it, and it felt as though i was going to overun them in short order.
Nice work thanx
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
Really happy to hear of the good balance HamburgerHill.
Can you tell me when you invaded SU? and how many turns had gone by and where were you in the conquest, and what month was it?
If it's "perfect" balance, GE should be on outskirts of Moscow & Leningrad when winter sets in. If you get there before hand, you're in great shape, after, and it's any body's game, or at least that's my hope.
Can you tell me when you invaded SU? and how many turns had gone by and where were you in the conquest, and what month was it?
If it's "perfect" balance, GE should be on outskirts of Moscow & Leningrad when winter sets in. If you get there before hand, you're in great shape, after, and it's any body's game, or at least that's my hope.
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HamburgerHill
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:23 pm
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
I think Appren's explaination of the events on the Soviet front are consistent with what I was seeing on my end.
I waited until April of 42' to launch my attack and opened my attack with 6 bombing raids on Soviet cities and production centers. Each of these 6 bomber units contained 10 level bombers. Since the Soviets never activated prior to my attack he never had a chance to build any kind of air defence even if he wanted to. As each turn continued and my armies pushed forward I also moved my bombers forward and continued to smash every city and production center within range. It looked as though Appren was spending what little production he could muster on building engineers to repair his cities and trying to establish air defences in Moscow. Had we continued I think I would have likely captured Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad maybe 2 turns before winter hit. Leningrad maybe could have held out until winter.
Had Soviets activated in Jan. 41' and Appren built some air defences it would have been a totally different war. Because of the activation issue I can't say one way or the other if the Soviet front was balanced.
We are going to start a new game using version R (This time I'll be allies). We'll keep you updated.[;)]
I waited until April of 42' to launch my attack and opened my attack with 6 bombing raids on Soviet cities and production centers. Each of these 6 bomber units contained 10 level bombers. Since the Soviets never activated prior to my attack he never had a chance to build any kind of air defence even if he wanted to. As each turn continued and my armies pushed forward I also moved my bombers forward and continued to smash every city and production center within range. It looked as though Appren was spending what little production he could muster on building engineers to repair his cities and trying to establish air defences in Moscow. Had we continued I think I would have likely captured Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad maybe 2 turns before winter hit. Leningrad maybe could have held out until winter.
Had Soviets activated in Jan. 41' and Appren built some air defences it would have been a totally different war. Because of the activation issue I can't say one way or the other if the Soviet front was balanced.
We are going to start a new game using version R (This time I'll be allies). We'll keep you updated.[;)]
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
In our previous game the Soviets only had their starting forces, so they were beyond helpless. Lets see what happens when we get there in the current game. 
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
Very, very, very helpful game report guys.
I have made the Level Bomber ranges historically accurate, but I have NOT attempted to discover and accurtely put in place AA.
For the West, it's not really an issue, since you can build them. For Soviet Union however........ you have discovered the problem.
Since Germany never historically produced many true long range level bombers, I had not thought about using this approach against SU.
So I'll do a little research to see what air defenses (aside from the air forces which got annhilated early on) SU had in place, if any. Even if I have to reduce historical accuracy, Appren (brilliant thinking!) has discoverd a way that seems to make it impossible for SU to compete, as things currenly stand.
More later.......
I have made the Level Bomber ranges historically accurate, but I have NOT attempted to discover and accurtely put in place AA.
For the West, it's not really an issue, since you can build them. For Soviet Union however........ you have discovered the problem.
Since Germany never historically produced many true long range level bombers, I had not thought about using this approach against SU.
So I'll do a little research to see what air defenses (aside from the air forces which got annhilated early on) SU had in place, if any. Even if I have to reduce historical accuracy, Appren (brilliant thinking!) has discoverd a way that seems to make it impossible for SU to compete, as things currenly stand.
More later.......
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british exil
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 6:26 pm
- Location: Lower Saxony Germany
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
Looking forward to your command: Go ahead, scenario is ready.
My panzers and Inf are waiting to hit Poland. Ready to hit back.
My panzers and Inf are waiting to hit Poland. Ready to hit back.
"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill
WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS
WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS
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kirkgregerson
- Posts: 497
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:21 pm
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
Just started a game. Think maybe still bug as I can't upgrade a CA as allies in London that starts there. Why not? Shows HQ has like 1700+ supply? Hope this is not a bug, cause it seems obvious??
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
Just started a game. Think maybe still bug as I can't upgrade a CA as allies in London that starts there. Why not? Shows HQ has like 1700+ supply? Hope this is not a bug, cause it seems obvious??
Without knowing the specifics, I'm guessing you don't have enough XP in the unit yet, esp. if it's at the beginning of the game.
Check that out, and if you'd like, send me the game file and any passwords, and I'll see what I can see.
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
Just started a game. Think maybe still bug as I can't upgrade a CA as allies in London that starts there. Why not? Shows HQ has like 1700+ supply? Hope this is not a bug, cause it seems obvious??
I think there is not enough supply available. In this version you need 3000 supply iirc for an upgrade to cruiser II. Expensive but worth it I think once you have this much accumulated ...
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kirkgregerson
- Posts: 497
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:21 pm
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
ummm yeah, about that 3,000. Well I kinda think it will hurt the allies very badly...sigh. So what is a BB, like 5,000? lol
[&:][:-]
[&:][:-]
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
Woops. I had a little "accident" in my German game. In 1940 I was trying to keep a small garrison on the Soviet border, so they would not activate early, but then in January they declared war since my garrison was too small. Maybe add a 1 month gap between the need for a minimal garrison, and when you need to start having a big garrison, and a popup warning in December? It is easy to miss this vital info in the huge briefing. I have only myself to blame of course, I should have read the briefing better, but still [:'(]
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
Appren-
That's a really good idea. I'll work on something to help, but if you're like me, you cycle through the beginning of turn messages pretty quickly.
I don't know of any way to change the text: font, color, size, etc... to make the warning real obvious, but I'll see what I can do.
That's a really good idea. I'll work on something to help, but if you're like me, you cycle through the beginning of turn messages pretty quickly.
I don't know of any way to change the text: font, color, size, etc... to make the warning real obvious, but I'll see what I can do.
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HamburgerHill
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:23 pm
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
I think it would be best if you just took the turn over Appren. [;)]
To have the Soviets activated so early in the Winter like this and going into full production right away. All the while I'm guessing 40% of your eastern army is still fighting it out in he Balkins. This is a really bad place for the Germans to be I think.
To have the Soviets activated so early in the Winter like this and going into full production right away. All the while I'm guessing 40% of your eastern army is still fighting it out in he Balkins. This is a really bad place for the Germans to be I think.
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
I'd probably rewrite the entire Soviet border PP check, to be honest. Instead of having a max limit before Jan 1941, and then suddenly needing a high amount, how about simply requiring the German player to maintain at least a 1000-1500pp garrison on the border after January 40, and no change later. Something simple at least, and the German player would get several turns of popups after the invasion of Poland finish, to prepare this.
Also, a comment on "4. Bomber Research divided into 2 categories: Dive Bomber and Level Bomber, each costing half of the original total Advantage: neutral? (GE will not start with Level Bomber tech though)" from your previous post. I do not think this is wise, as it would make specializing into high level of research on a particular bomber type much too cheap. Keep bomber research as it is, I'd say, or perhaps 2 new research at something like 80-90% of the original cost.
Also, a comment on "4. Bomber Research divided into 2 categories: Dive Bomber and Level Bomber, each costing half of the original total Advantage: neutral? (GE will not start with Level Bomber tech though)" from your previous post. I do not think this is wise, as it would make specializing into high level of research on a particular bomber type much too cheap. Keep bomber research as it is, I'd say, or perhaps 2 new research at something like 80-90% of the original cost.
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HamburgerHill
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:23 pm
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
@Explorer
Appren and I are discussing the problems with the air war in the west. As you know from earlier discussions on the subject. The German air force is pretty much grounded in the winter since the loss in rediness causes the intercept range of German fighter to shrink down to 0 for level 1 fighters and higher level fighters might be able to reach a range of 1 or 2 maybe. Defending against a full strength bombing campaign from the west can be very difficult.
Since it is not possible to remove the rediness penalty from air units located in a winter hex. Perhaps it would be possible to remove the effects of winter from major cities in western Europe. Like Paris and most of the German cities. This way all units located in the city would escape the rediness penalty including air units.
Appren and I are discussing the problems with the air war in the west. As you know from earlier discussions on the subject. The German air force is pretty much grounded in the winter since the loss in rediness causes the intercept range of German fighter to shrink down to 0 for level 1 fighters and higher level fighters might be able to reach a range of 1 or 2 maybe. Defending against a full strength bombing campaign from the west can be very difficult.
Since it is not possible to remove the rediness penalty from air units located in a winter hex. Perhaps it would be possible to remove the effects of winter from major cities in western Europe. Like Paris and most of the German cities. This way all units located in the city would escape the rediness penalty including air units.
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
@Appren
Regarding GE/SU border garrison requirement:
It absolutely bites big time if GE doesn't keep it up. But IMHO it adds a significant game element to have it a variable amount. It gives SU something to hope for by "bull-rushing" the border, but it's a gamble for SU, because if they try that strategy and it doesn't work, GE can just really tear them up.
I don't think it's too much to ask the GE player to pay attention a lot to their numbers - they're clearly reported each turn. I'll try to put another warning or 2, but like I said previously, AT message screen has no ability for large fonts, bold, etc.... so it's hard to make a message stand out.
Bomber Research: you're right, it will make specializing easier. How much it effects total game balance I think we need some game reports to discover. If it proves to make a significant negative impact, it will be easy to adjust the numbers higher.
@Hamburger Hill:
From what I've been reading, I think you guys seem to have a pretty good system for housee rules for air. Wish I could make them into game rules, but of course that's not possible.
Your idea about winter readiness has merit IMHO. I'd love it if people could weigh in on their thoughts about this. It could have unintended consequences however, since it would also effect land units. I think it probably would have some pretty strong game balance repurcussions, like when/if the West is invading GE held territory.
Let's think this one through carefully and get as many voices as possible on this one.
If you'd like and have time to test it, I could make a special version that does this and you could test it out.
Let me know.
Thanks for all the good thinking and discussion here.
Regarding GE/SU border garrison requirement:
It absolutely bites big time if GE doesn't keep it up. But IMHO it adds a significant game element to have it a variable amount. It gives SU something to hope for by "bull-rushing" the border, but it's a gamble for SU, because if they try that strategy and it doesn't work, GE can just really tear them up.
I don't think it's too much to ask the GE player to pay attention a lot to their numbers - they're clearly reported each turn. I'll try to put another warning or 2, but like I said previously, AT message screen has no ability for large fonts, bold, etc.... so it's hard to make a message stand out.
Bomber Research: you're right, it will make specializing easier. How much it effects total game balance I think we need some game reports to discover. If it proves to make a significant negative impact, it will be easy to adjust the numbers higher.
@Hamburger Hill:
From what I've been reading, I think you guys seem to have a pretty good system for housee rules for air. Wish I could make them into game rules, but of course that's not possible.
Your idea about winter readiness has merit IMHO. I'd love it if people could weigh in on their thoughts about this. It could have unintended consequences however, since it would also effect land units. I think it probably would have some pretty strong game balance repurcussions, like when/if the West is invading GE held territory.
Let's think this one through carefully and get as many voices as possible on this one.
If you'd like and have time to test it, I could make a special version that does this and you could test it out.
Let me know.
Thanks for all the good thinking and discussion here.
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HamburgerHill
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:23 pm
RE: WaW Revised Version R Available
That is a consequence I had not thought of. It may not be a major one though.
In theory it would make taking a German city in western Europe more difficult during winter months. But if the Germans are in any real danger of losing one of there home cities to the West or the Soviets, there game is pretty well finished at that point anyway.
I suggest only making enough German cities permanent summer zones to mount an effective air defence against against west. Example:Essen, Dusseldorf, and colongne are clustered together. If just Essen were released from winter then fighters posted there could protect all three. The other cites I would propose releasing are Hamburg, Berlin, Prague, and Munich. The other German cities in the East would be out of reach if the Brits wanted to give the bombers fighter escorts and would be easier to defend as a result. Paris would be the only captured city I would suggest releasing.
I would like to here some other opinions here as well. I know Appren agrees but I would like to know how others feel.[:)]
In theory it would make taking a German city in western Europe more difficult during winter months. But if the Germans are in any real danger of losing one of there home cities to the West or the Soviets, there game is pretty well finished at that point anyway.
I suggest only making enough German cities permanent summer zones to mount an effective air defence against against west. Example:Essen, Dusseldorf, and colongne are clustered together. If just Essen were released from winter then fighters posted there could protect all three. The other cites I would propose releasing are Hamburg, Berlin, Prague, and Munich. The other German cities in the East would be out of reach if the Brits wanted to give the bombers fighter escorts and would be easier to defend as a result. Paris would be the only captured city I would suggest releasing.
I would like to here some other opinions here as well. I know Appren agrees but I would like to know how others feel.[:)]