Unit Exp: campaigns

[kirkgregerson]

I recently finished Case White. It was quite a battle and initially I had planned to take Warsaw for the decisive victory, however, with the mobs of Polish there I decide to go for all the rest of the vic points and squeeze but keep casualties low. It was a race against time and just when I thought I'd take the last vic spot (far east Poland city) but the AI reinforced it and my early victory turned out to be nothing more than an 'on-time' victory.

So I guess I won, but received no bonus pp. On the flip side I had taken the 'EVAC' points and thus NO polish units were able to escape the slaughter. So no -pp for any Polish evacs.

Finally tally: German casualties: 6% / Polish 60% (did receive 20pp for being under the 10% by 4%, guess 10 per 2% under?)

That was fun and the AI was much better than I thought and better by far than any other war game I played. Although the Strategic Command AI doesn't set the bar very high.[;)]

Now we come to my disillusionment part of the story. So I start Case Yellow and I'm very excited to see some of my units, namely 1st and 3rd Panzer, ready to fight with their nice high exp gained from Case White (unit avg around 50). This was done through the 'personal reshuffle' card as well as fighting.

So I start reviewing these supposedly veteran units on May 10th, 1940 and to my horror I see their experience down to 19-20). I literally say to my self WTF! In the blink of an eye I felt sick to my stomach and the thought of all my hard work to get these and other units into fighting shape for Case Yellow were blown to hell.

I had to stop playing, all my momentum and excitement to start the French campaign was lost. My mojo for the game gone.... [:(] Please somebody say it is not so. WTF

I bought this game because I felt the campaign idea was a unique way to see my core German units go from battles to battles and gain the experience that historically made them such a force in later campaigns such as Barbarossa. So to my surprise the ONE and I mean most important aspect IMO for this to work would be to have the experience levels carry over from campaign to campaign.

Am I wrong here? Is there something coding wise that's too difficult to make this happen? Guessing not? Is there a bug here that can be fixed soon? [:-]

The ONLY thing I can think of is that replacements to get the unit back to full strength would be taking on raw recruits with low exp and thus lowering the average. But, after a little math (not my forte, so correct me if wrong) I determine that NO that could not be the case.

** For example my all my units in 1st Pz Div were about 80-90% of max strength and the end of Case White.
So, I'll look at both cases where recruits would have 0 exp and 10exp for the 80% strength low example.

so the 80% of 50exp = 40exp + 20% of the 10exp = 2, thus net exp would be lowered from 50exp to 43exp
so the 80% of 50exp = 40exp + 20% of the 0exp = 0, thus net exp would be lowered from 50exp to 40exp

In either case, my units should still have around 40exp and NOT 19-20. The only way they could have lost around 20-30 exp is to have been about less then half strength, which they were not and I have the save to prove it.

For now I'm spent and done with WtP, unless somebody can convince me my units should be back to noob levels and not have gained the valuable exp from Case White. Good luck with that, because that's the WHOLE darn point of playing the campaign IMO. So maybe Vic will get a patch for this SHOW STOPPER bug. I'll wait for that or WitE, which ever comes first I guess. I had high hopes for WtP and Vic is my guy too!
<sigh> [:(]

[kirkgregerson]

Bueller, Buelller, anyone?

[abulbulian]

Amen. I had similar complaint or don't understand how exp moves. We both had about the same results too! Almost had an early victory. My Polish loses were 58%, but I like to round that number up to 60%. [8D]

Maybe a developer will reply to this post in the future and tell us were just crazy.

[kirkgregerson]

After looking again it seems every unit has exp from 18-19. Wow, lol. What is going on? Did the game just take the avg exp gain in Case White and raise all my units by that %?

Not to be too critical but that seems totally ridiculous as that means personal and leaders would be shuffled around giving this bogus average exp increase. [X(]

Anybody else have an opinion?

[colberki]

Seems your attention to detail may have uncovered a critical piece of sloppy design which clearly undermines the enjoyment value of the campaign. Lets see what they say when they do reply. IMHO, if your observations are correct, a patch is needed to properly carry over experience earned at the unit level. Not some arbitary big picture averaging.

Great stuff!

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

I recently finished Case White. It was quite a battle and initially I had planned to take Warsaw for the decisive victory, however, with the mobs of Polish there I decide to go for all the rest of the vic points and squeeze but keep casualties low. It was a race against time and just when I thought I'd take the last vic spot (far east Poland city) but the AI reinforced it and my early victory turned out to be nothing more than an 'on-time' victory.

So I guess I won, but received no bonus pp. On the flip side I had taken the 'EVAC' points and thus NO polish units were able to escape the slaughter. So no -pp for any Polish evacs.

Finally tally: German casualties: 6% / Polish 60% (did receive 20pp for being under the 10% by 4%, guess 10 per 2% under?)

That was fun and the AI was much better than I thought and better by far than any other war game I played. Although the Strategic Command AI doesn't set the bar very high.[;)]

Now we come to my disillusionment part of the story. So I start Case Yellow and I'm very excited to see some of my units, namely 1st and 3rd Panzer, ready to fight with their nice high exp gained from Case White (unit avg around 50). This was done through the 'personal reshuffle' card as well as fighting.

So I start reviewing these supposedly veteran units on May 10th, 1940 and to my horror I see their experience down to 19-20). I literally say to my self WTF! In the blink of an eye I felt sick to my stomach and the thought of all my hard work to get these and other units into fighting shape for Case Yellow were blown to hell.

I had to stop playing, all my momentum and excitement to start the French campaign was lost. My mojo for the game gone.... [:(] Please somebody say it is not so. WTF

I bought this game because I felt the campaign idea was a unique way to see my core German units go from battles to battles and gain the experience that historically made them such a force in later campaigns such as Barbarossa. So to my surprise the ONE and I mean most important aspect IMO for this to work would be to have the experience levels carry over from campaign to campaign.

Am I wrong here? Is there something coding wise that's too difficult to make this happen? Guessing not? Is there a bug here that can be fixed soon? [:-]

The ONLY thing I can think of is that replacements to get the unit back to full strength would be taking on raw recruits with low exp and thus lowering the average. But, after a little math (not my forte, so correct me if wrong) I determine that NO that could not be the case.

** For example my all my units in 1st Pz Div were about 80-90% of max strength and the end of Case White.
So, I'll look at both cases where recruits would have 0 exp and 10exp for the 80% strength low example.

so the 80% of 50exp = 40exp + 20% of the 10exp = 2, thus net exp would be lowered from 50exp to 43exp
so the 80% of 50exp = 40exp + 20% of the 0exp = 0, thus net exp would be lowered from 50exp to 40exp

In either case, my units should still have around 40exp and NOT 19-20. The only way they could have lost around 20-30 exp is to have been about less then half strength, which they were not and I have the save to prove it.

For now I'm spent and done with WtP, unless somebody can convince me my units should be back to noob levels and not have gained the valuable exp from Case White. Good luck with that, because that's the WHOLE darn point of playing the campaign IMO. So maybe Vic will get a patch for this SHOW STOPPER bug. I'll wait for that or WitE, which ever comes first I guess. I had high hopes for WtP and Vic is my guy too!
<sigh> [:(]

Show stopper? Nah, more like THREAD STOPPER. I had brain freeze reading this. To quote you I even said "WTF".
Actually I yawned.
I am enjoying the game to much to worry about an issue like this so soon after release.

[kirkgregerson]

parusski, I'll keep this part short for you because obviously your brain can't handle anything over a few sentences. The post was not for your 'entertainment'. I don't care about you or your waste of a reply to my post.[:o]

<stop reading here parusski>

I would like somebody to reply with an intelligent answer to why the game mechanics seem to be flawed from operation to operation in the campaign when dealing with unit experience. I have spoken with a few other 'gamers' that also find it ridiculous that units don't at least maintenance their experience even considering a slight lowering to take on replacements to be brought back up to strength.

I bought the game somewhat under that premise as people were saying it was similar to the '6th Army' mod for AT in campaign mode.

[Grymme]

Kirk. I can understand your concern. Bur maybe you can relax a little until at least Vic gets to answer if he wants and maybe a take a softer approach.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

After looking again it seems every unit has exp from 18-19. Wow, lol. What is going on? Did the game just take the avg exp gain in Case White and raise all my units by that %?

Not to be too critical but that seems totally ridiculous as that means personal and leaders would be shuffled around giving this bogus average exp increase. [X(]

Anybody else have an opinion?

Yeah, I gave you my opinion. You never specified it had to be intelligent.

So I ull just get back to thu game, which I aint reelley figuren owt how to pla. Becaze I cant not read. I am not that intel, intelluh, intelauhge...smart.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

W.T. Sherman, I'll keep this part short for you because obviously your brain can't handle anything over a few sentences. The post was not for your 'entertainment'. I don't care about you or your waste of a reply to my post.[:o]

<stop reading here W.T>

I would like somebody to reply with an intelligent answer to why the game mechanics seem to be flawed from operation to operation in the campaign when dealing with unit experience. I have spoken with a few other 'gamers' that also find it ridiculous that units don't at least maintenance their experience even considering a slight lowering to take on replacements to be brought back up to strength.

I bought the game somewhat under that premise as people were saying it was similar to the '6th Army' mod for AT in campaign mode.

Yea its probably just a minor bug somewhere. Because it's supposed to work like the 6th Army campaign in AT and that worked pretty darn well

[Josh]

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

W.T. Sherman, I'll keep this part short for you because obviously your brain can't handle anything over a few sentences. The post was not for your 'entertainment'. I don't care about you or your waste of a reply to my post.[:o]

<stop reading here W.T>

I would like somebody to reply with an intelligent answer to why the game mechanics seem to be flawed from operation to operation in the campaign when dealing with unit experience. I have spoken with a few other 'gamers' that also find it ridiculous that units don't at least maintenance their experience even considering a slight lowering to take on replacements to be brought back up to strength.

I bought the game somewhat under that premise as people were saying it was similar to the '6th Army' mod for AT in campaign mode.

Yea its probably just a minor bug somewhere. Because it's supposed to work like the 6th Army campaign in AT and that worked pretty darn well

I agree. Your precious units *not* getting much exp. surely would be a showstopper for anyone. So I wouldn't worry about this too much.

[boshar]

Though I understand the dissapointment I do ask you how historical is it to let the experience build up between case white and case yellow. Historicly the units you mention had a change of commanding generals between both operations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Panzer ... _(Germany)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Panzer ... _(Germany)

Makes me think that such a change could in game terms nullify the effect of the reshuffle card. We also know that the panzer divisions where reorganized and reequiped after case white. New equipment that operates differently could be a bonus but unfamiliarity with the new equipment could mean a temporary drop in experience.

Now I'm just playing devils advocate here and I think there is a bug that needs to be solved by Vic but I stil think its a bit gamey to expect experience point to carry over without any loss.

[kirkgregerson]

parusski,

You're displaying a very low level of intelligence if you can't understand when I asked about an opinion it refered to my post. I guess the logical side of your brain never developed past a 2nd grade level? Actually, I think some 2nd graders would be offended at being compared to you after reading your comments on this post.

If you have nothing to say about the original post or can't figure it out, try reading the title again. If you still have no clue, then maybe don't post anything? You think?

Parusski, stay out of my post please, go ramble on about what entertains you somewhere else. Either way I don't care about anything you have to say and I'm guessing most people you meet don't either.

[kirkgregerson]

I'm not sure to begin with anybody that doesn't understand how the Germany army had such an advantage over the opponents by 1940 and 1941. Maybe pick up and read any book about the Wehrmacht through about 1942?

You can train troops for months and months, but it doesn't compare to the real gain a unit can get from experience in battle. The troops not only get 'real-time' experience, but for bonds in combat that can't be gained from anything thing else.

And yes, there were other factors as well that made the German armed forces

Case and point, the US troops that landed in North Africa were very well trained and very well equipped. The lacked experience and so did most of their officers and NCOs. Which is why they had to suffer some catastrophic loses such as Kasserine Pass.

So please don't act like unit experience is some trivial aspect of warfare.

[colberki]

It does take out a lot of the fun when the game engine bug aside warns to average out the experience gained. By all means apply a discount factor for reequipment and people changes. At 18-19 experience it looks like what it is in the stand alone scenario. Is this an undocumented play balance thing? In Panzer General we get to keep the experience earned from one scenario to the next. Maybe "gamey". But it's a game and it's great fun to nuture our favorite units. Remember excessive losses carry over.
Hope Vic can tweak this aspect to allow more individualized unit experience carry over. I recognize that some units may end up with less experience compared with the historical stand alone starting set up due to our choices.

[kirkgregerson]

I didn't have excessive loses. In my initial post I stated that the German loses were at 6% when I won.

I'm going to attach my save file and send it to Vic, so he can see first hand the issue and thus confirm to me what is going on. My hope is that they can patch the game and with my save just before the last turn of victory on Case White, I can start Case Yellow on the patched game with my unit experience carried over from Case White. If this does not happen, my guess is this game will be shelved. With no editor to adjust the units myself, I'm too frustrated to play on with Case Yellow. If I did then after Case Yellow my unit exp will also not carry over to Sea Lion, which I'm sorry to say is 'bogus'.

[GlobalExplorer]

I am a new new customer and I bought the game specifically based on claims as this:

- A campaign option that allows play of all three scenarios with continuity so losses, etc. transfer over

I played games like Panzer General, where a large part of the fun is to build up an army that gains experience, better equipment etc. and expected DC would be like that.

Now I am not pleased to read about new claims that unit experience is not carried over. Can that even be? I would like a clarification, too.

[Vic]

Sorry to hear there are expectations that the game is not meeting. It might be in the phrasing of the sales promotion texts that doesnt explicitly say that the continuity is not on unit level. But usually PR texts state what the game does do and not what it doesnt. It might be in other campaign containing games do things differently and customers subconsciously expect this 'campaign' to do the same.

But to give a clear and short answer: this is not a bug. This is intended functionality. Morale and experience and losses average out.

The campaign was always meant as an extra on top of the scenarios that would allow you to play them all with some consequences between them and to introduce some strategic action cards and random variants and links like Polish evacs and BEF evacs turning up in the next scenarios. The campaign aspects are thus relatively abstract and low detail level.

Again sorry to hear about some people disappointments. But this is how the game is. The last thing I wanted to do was give the impression that this was some Panzer General like campaign title.

Best regards,
Vic

[GlobalExplorer]

Where is the problem with including this&nbsp;functionality?

[GlobalExplorer]

It doesn't need to be Panzer General, but the product page states:

- A campaign option that allows play of all three scenarios with continuity so losses, etc. transfer over

Can we discuss different interpretations of the meaning of: continuity, .. losses, etc. transfer over??

The game has great potential, but I would have certainly not bought the game if the scenarios are stand alone, unconnected dead ends.