Electronic Support Level in 3.4

[Telumar]

Force Electronic Support Level now actually works in spotting units that have moved, HQs, Airplanes, etc.
Also added helicopters to the easy to spot list. Note: This may unbalance some scenarios that have an ESL
assigned. However, an ESL of the default (33) is treated as 0 so as to not imbalance existing scenarios.

So far so good. How does it work actually?

In Anzio i have set ESL to 40 (Germans) and 45 (Allies). As in former versions of TOAW the default was 33, should i set it to 7 and 12? Or ...???

[ralphtricky]

For the German turn. it rolls random numbers between 0 and 40 for the Germans and 0 and 45 for the Allies and if the German number is bigger, the Allies are spotted.

In that case, the Germans will spot about 44% of the Allied units that moved or are HQs/Aircraft/Helicopters, and the Allies will spot about 55% of the Germans.

The value is also used along with the force communication variable in determing whether the formation will re-organize and whether artillery will support attacks.

You've probably spotted the interesting thing here. Right now, if it's not 33%, at least 50% of one side's HQs are going to be exposed. That doesn't seem very flexible. We'll look at that for 3.5 and see if we need to revise that formula. I'd think that anything modern would have the HQs less vulnerable.

Ralph

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Force Electronic Support Level now actually works in spotting units that have moved, HQs, Airplanes, etc.
Also added helicopters to the easy to spot list. Note: This may unbalance some scenarios that have an ESL
assigned. However, an ESL of the default (33) is treated as 0 so as to not imbalance existing scenarios.

So far so good. How does it work actually?

In Anzio i have set ESL to 40 (Germans) and 45 (Allies). As in former versions of TOAW the default was 33, should i set it to 7 and 12? Or ...???

[ogar]

Ralph, Telumar,

I'll keep track of this as well (I'm playing Anzio on 3.4.191). Off-hand, I'd say that the Allies have a little bit better recon than on TOAW 3.2 (I think some of that is my better play - 4th or 5th time at this scenario - and taking peaks, viewpoints timely.) It's early turns yet, and the stormy weather will reduce recon a lot - meaning any ELS effect will dominate visual spotting, so those turns will be a good test of any changes vs TOAW 3.2.

Ogar

[ogar]

Ralph,

Just in case I get too carried away below -- I want to remind anyone reading that I am very appreciative of all the work everyone (you, especially) but all the folks involved did in getting TOAW 3.4 out the door. It was a huge project, and I'm finding as I work with it that 3.4 was bigger, more subtle, and more complex than I thought. Thanks to all who helped.

Now onto the electronic support levels -

I was thinking about your post above, and here's how I understand it (please correct where I go off the rails).


If a unit is on the ESL list (say, an HQ) and it is 'seen', then will just that unit show up or will all units in that hex become visible ? Even if the others are not on the list - no move, no fire, no combat. ?

I read that a setting of 33 (default) is treated as zero, to not unbalance older scenarios, which is great - but what if I want to make one side have a max ESL of 30 or 25 ? Or God forbid, 33 ?

It looks to me like the probability of TOAW 'choosing' a pseudo-random integer between 0 and the max ESL is uniformly distributed. And the arithmetic mean of any uniform distribution is its midpoint, and the thus the expected value for any uniform distribution is 0.50 (aka 50%) -- average * (1/number_of_items). So whether a scenario designer takes the default or sets a lower/higher max ESL, the expected value is 50% for any one side's ESL.

That expected value is adjusted by the ratio of the two sides max ESLs. In Telumar's example, the Axis is adjusted by 40/45, and the Allies by 45/40 -- which gives the Axis an expected value of 0.44 (44%) and Allies an exp. value of 0.55 (55%). If Telumar had used the defaults, the ratio would be equal and each side would have an expected value of 0.50 (50%). As you point out, this means that X% (44,55, or 50 depending on ratios) of a side's 'ESL-visible' units will be recognized by the other side. That is, the Allied player can expect to 'see' 55% of any Axis unit that moved, fired, combatted, HQ-ed, heli-ed, flew, etc. during the preceding Axis turn.

I think Telumar is doing two things with ESL -- saying the Allies are about 10% better at it than the Axis (45 vs 40). I think the ratio multiplying the 0.50 does do that well. But Telumar is also saying that both sides kinda sorta suck at ESL -- implying a 40 or 45 out of 100; they're not falling down in the gutter bad, but let's face it - neither side can even see as far as break-even. And that is missing from the present calculation.

And I think the uniform 50% chance is far too high. I think the uniform distribution is a quick simple programming answer, but it needs some persuading.


So, as far as 3.5 or later, how about :

1) Leave the defaults as is. A lot of scenarios do not bother with ESL and you have enough to worry about with 'I didnt know that feature effected this feature' coming from designers without adding any more. (I'm still not real clear on the present use of 33, but I vote for not the rocking the boat.)

2) Give designers an option to turn ESL altogether. I think pre-WWI designers and maybe others will want that.

3) Keep the uniform probability distribution, but allow the designer to weight it. Presently, the ratio allows the designer to favor one side over another. Keep that. Add a new multiplier -- whether you decide to give a set of weights {0.10, 0.25, 0.40, 0.55, 0.66, 0.80} or a range of 0.01 to 1.00, with 1.00 as default. Then use the 2nd weight to adjust the calculation.
Example : Telumar keeps the existing 40 and 45 for Axis and Allies, but sets the weight at 0.90. The calculation 'chooses' an integer between 0 and 40; multiply by the weight; round; 'chooses' a 2nd integer between 0 and 45; multiply by weight; round; compare; if value1 > value2, unit is seen. {Say the integer is 31; then value1 is 28 (27.9 rounded); 2nd integer is 24; value2 is 22 (21.6); Allied unit is visible.}

You'll probably need to add a display window in the editor to show the effects of weighting the exp. value if you do adopt this (yeah, I know, real men will take off their socks and count on their toes, but if we're adding complexity let's add a way to check its immediate effect.}

So, if I understand this correctly, I hope this helps.