1933 Diplomacy again

[Bombur]

New version v3.22

-Tom weber: Italy and Germany
-Rufus T Firefly: France and GB
-ernieshcwitz: USSR
-Bombur: Turkey and Spain

[tweber]

Turn 2 sent. Germany is weak to start but has a diplomatic block until attacked so it will probably be quite a while until the action starts.

[Bombur]

In the diplomatic front, Turkey, Spain and Italy signed a mutual defense pact.

[tweber]

Moving now, turn 3 sent...

[RufusTFirefly]

Seems there is friendly fire activated in this scenario. Britain sent some naval fighters on a recon flight across the Channel. Unfortunately I selected a hex with French navy in it, that was not visible for British planes. Although it was a recon flight and Britain and France are not at war, the French fleet shot down a naval fighter. First time I play an AT scenario with friendly fire [:D]

[tweber]

Turn 4 sent.

Hungary joins Germany giving me an airforce.

[Bombur]

Germany also annexed Austria and Hungary....

[Bombur]

Rufus, are you sure you didn´t declare war on France by mistake???

[RufusTFirefly]

I know I am getting old. But not that old that I declare war between Britain and France [:D]

But to be sure (this guy made me feel I cannt trust myself anymore [X(]) I opened the French turn 4 again. I can make a DoW against Britain, so there is not yet any war. You should see that in your nations list as well.

[tweber]

Turn 5 sent.  Austria's joining my side tripple's my Airforce, but off of a very small base.

[ernieschwitz]

German expansion continues at a blistering pace.

First Hungary, then Austria and now Switzerland have joined the German quest to become the greatest power in the World. German diplomacy is proving very effective. The world waits in awe at what the next diplomatic move will be...

Meanwhile in Russia, the economic minister is proud to annonunce certain gains in the economic structure of the country. Each city now produces at 100% (instead of 80% that is the default for Russia). This is further proof of the superiority of the Soviet workers paradise!

[tweber]

I found the diplomatic cost for Switzerland to be relatively low given the Swiss tradition of neutrality.  Strategically, Switzerland is beautifully positioned under and behind the Maginot Line with a short road to Paris.  The mountainous terrain gives also makes it easy to defend.  If I was France, I would have gone for it immediately.  As it would greatly complicate the defense of both Germany and Italy.

[ernieschwitz]

I agree completely. I would have gone for the first 2 levels of diplomacy of Switzerland too... blocking it from take-over from anyone else, at the very least.

As for the costs, they have been calculated according to how much each country produces, and according to three levels of likelyhood for being taken over diplomatically. The 3 levels are 100% cost (normal), 125% cost (forced) and 150% cost (resisted). As a rule of thumb i set every conquered country as resisted, making Poland 150% cost for Germany to take over diplomatically for instance. This works pretty well for countries with big economies, like Poland, Yugoslavia, Sweden... but it seems to work not so well for countries with smaller economies, like Switzerland.

[RufusTFirefly]

If you would have been France and seen how easily it was overrun last time and notice that in this new game Germany and Spain stand ready to invade you would ahve tried all to strengthen the French. The French HQs have only 30 percent of staff needed. So looking for more staff and sufficiant supply is first to do, as I dont know when the enemies will attack.

Feel free to play France in this game if you think you are able to do it better.

[tweber]

I actually think this set up is much more interesting that I thought at first glance.  With the early tech available, Artillery II is the key to any offensive.  France starts out with 80 artillery II to Germany's 8.  Spain has 20 and Italy has 34.  Of course, the French and British also have massive fleets that can act as artillery on the coast.  So, it is pretty safe to say that Britain and France can handle all comers in 1933 even with France's staff deficiency.
 
The interesting thing is that Germany has a diplomatic block until they attack.  So, they can attack whenever they want.  This forces France to maintain a certain level of military efficiency.  Germany, on the other hand, can try a number of strategies and can attack with surprise.  So, it is an interesting role. 
 
I think there are a couple of things that France / GB can do to make things difficult for Germany.  I would be happy to switch roles after this game to try it out.  I use to play DOD / WIF a long time ago and doing a pre-war buildup is definitely interesting.
 
 
 

[ernieschwitz]

First off:

Let me make it very clear that i don´t consider France a very easy country to run. It is surrounded by enemies, has a combined economy less than that of its combined enemies by far, and on top of that, an army that is, to put it very politely, very static. The fleet is nice, but ultimately won´t solve Frances land troubles. The Airforce is also nice, but not completely superior to that of italy either.

In short: I think France is doomed.

That being said, there are some upsides to the French position. First of all, its army is alot larger than that of Germany, and it would take a while before any threat materializes from that direction. Secondly, France has a better time convincing alot of states to join them diplomatically. Some better than even that of Britain, despite them being partners.

Overall: i still think France is a lost cause.

The question becomes more of how that doom comes about, more than how to hold that country. In this game, it seems that maginot will be bypassed, by Germany, through Switzerland. If France had spent 115 PPs to secure it, then some other fate would have befallen france, no doubt.

I for instance also have a shortage of staff in Russia, and calculated it would take me 8 turns(!) of continous production, every single city i had, to rectify that...

France being lost is not the end of the game, and we have even yet to get to that point. Who knows maybe the French Army will prevail, and the German assualt (if it comes from Germany at all, and not one of her allies) will be thrown back.

I will admit that last times game might easily have influenced the thinking of France in this game. That is perhaps even more historical than i thought we could get. It would have been only natural for France to fear a German invasion after World War I.

Anyway, this is already a much more interesting game than the last one, I think, and i like how diplomacy now seems to have a place in it... so lets keep soldiering on, and eventually beat Germany

[Bombur]

ORIGINAL: RufusTFirefly

I know I am getting old. But not that old that I declare war between Britain and France [:D]

But to be sure (this guy made me feel I cannot trust myself anymore [X(]) I opened the French turn 4 again. I can make a DoW against Britain, so there is not yet any war. You should see that in your nations list as well.

-Sorry, Rufus, no intention to be offensive....well, it seems we have a bug here.
-On France´s perspectives, I think you should try to build a big army, with an emphasis in defensive units (fighters, AT guns, mg´s). Lots of artillery would be useful too. And don´t forget that bombers have anti supply capabilities in this scenario. It would be good to annex Holland and Belgium too, the question is how many pp´s you will get.

[tweber]

Turn 6 sent. 

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

First off:

Let me make it very clear that i don´t consider France a very easy country to run. It is surrounded by enemies, has a combined economy less than that of its combined enemies by far, and on top of that, an army that is, to put it very politely, very static. The fleet is nice, but ultimately won´t solve Frances land troubles. The Airforce is also nice, but not completely superior to that of italy either.

In short: I think France is doomed.

That being said, there are some upsides to the French position. First of all, its army is alot larger than that of Germany, and it would take a while before any threat materializes from that direction. Secondly, France has a better time convincing alot of states to join them diplomatically. Some better than even that of Britain, despite them being partners.

Overall: i still think France is a lost cause.

The question becomes more of how that doom comes about, more than how to hold that country. In this game, it seems that maginot will be bypassed, by Germany, through Switzerland. If France had spent 115 PPs to secure it, then some other fate would have befallen france, no doubt.

I for instance also have a shortage of staff in Russia, and calculated it would take me 8 turns(!) of continous production, every single city i had, to rectify that...

France being lost is not the end of the game, and we have even yet to get to that point. Who knows maybe the French Army will prevail, and the German assualt (if it comes from Germany at all, and not one of her allies) will be thrown back.

I will admit that last times game might easily have influenced the thinking of France in this game. That is perhaps even more historical than i thought we could get. It would have been only natural for France to fear a German invasion after World War I.

Anyway, this is already a much more interesting game than the last one, I think, and i like how diplomacy now seems to have a place in it... so lets keep soldiering on, and eventually beat Germany

From an outsider; Is it possible for France to align itself with Germany ?

[tweber]

Any set of alignments is possible as they is little hard programing in this scenario.  Germany starts out very weak relative to France and the Soviet Union but cannot be attacked until it declares war somewhere.  So, Germany can determine when the war starts which helps to offset it's otherwise weak position.