That 1 casualty guarantee!!

[Venger]

Just beat the snot out of some more Russians, but had a VERY annoying result that cannot be explained...

I was defending and had several entrenched 90mm and 76mm guns in various positions. Of course the Russians came at me with T34/85, IS-2, KV1, and ISU-122. My guns open up, and do well.

Except...

For some reason, every time the freaking ISU-122's fire, they get a casualty. EVERY TIME. Unit's entrenched, no matter, 1 casualty. 2 percent hit chance, no matter, 1 casualty. 30 hexes, no matter, 1 casualty. Needless to say this caused me great consternation, so much so I was forced to destroy all those ISU-122's...

Still, why on earth is that happening? It makes zero sense. The other tanks opened up with their 75 and 85's, and with 2% chance... 1 suppression. But those 122 get a free casualty. It bites. Anyone else notice or have an explanation?

Thanks,

Venger

[orc4hire]

It's the AI's way of compensating the Russians for the .50 caliber machine guns the Americans have that are slaved to the tank main gun, like the tribarrel on a Hammer's Slammers supertank, and fire every time at any range.

[gdpsnake]

I've noticed similar instances of outrageous fortune. Seems to me that when the computer knows it's getting beat bad it begins to shine with uncanny luck. But I guess it's just me - no cheating allowed right!

[Figmo]

Venger,

I must admit that I haven't noticed this but will check it out right away!! It doesn't sound right to me either. Does it also happen with SU-152s?

On another OT note - orc4hire - you read "Hammer's Slammers" - COOOL!! I haven't read one of those in years - loved 'em - read about 4 or 5 - do they still make them??

Figmo

[Tombstone]

I think the size of the explosion is not considered when the 1% or 2% value is calculated. Its a lot bigger explosion.. I agree that ALWAYS one casualty is annoying, but maybe if a 122mm shell blows up less than 50m away from 10 guys one either gets killed, wounded, or freaked out so bad he dont fight no more... It's probably explainable in one way or another. You dont need to hit with explosive weapons to cause casualties or damage.

Tomo

[victorhauser]

This bug has been around since v1.0 of SPWaW. I've reported it in several different threads, but it is not yet recognized as a bug. Also, it is not limited to ISU-122s.

Just yesterday one of my US rifle squads (experience 73) got itself in a firefight with Japanese Type A squad that was in cover in wooded-rough terrain. My squad started the turn with 5:5:5 shots and had a 4% chance to hit. First shot, bang-rifle hit, bang-BAR hit, bang-grenade hit. Three weapons fired and all three hit. Now my squad is at 4:4:4 with a 5% hit chance. Bang-rifle hit, bang-BAR hit, bang-grenade hit. Three weapons fired and three more hits. Now my squad is at 3:3:3. Bang bang bang three more hits. Now 2:2:2, bang bang bang, three more hits. Now 1:1:1, bang bang bang three more hits and the 15-man Japanese Type A squad is all gone. 15 weapons fired, 15 kills (oh, I had the Japanese infantry toughness set to 250%, too, as I always do). I've played dozens of SPWaW games from v1.0 to v2.3 and I've seen this behavior at least once in every game I've played. It is not unit specific, it does not happen to the same unit again and again. It seems to vary from turn to turn. On some turns I've had 2 units turn into killing machines and hit with every weapon fired, other turns nothing out of the ordinary happens. I can only tell you it happens and it happens a lot, at least once in every game of SPWaW (regardless of version or nationalities or unit types) I've ever played. It is not something that can be written off as "one of the imponderabilities of war", or "you got lucky". No amount of luck can explain what I just described above (15 weapons fired, 15 kills, where the hit % never showed above 8% against an elite Type A squad in cover in rough terrain with 250% toughness where my rifle squad was only average).

But I think I'm sounding a little too strident or upset here. It's been a long day and I'm tired and cranky. Compared to many of the wonderful things the Matrix Staff has done with SPWaW, my observation (outburst?) here is small potatoes.

[orc4hire]

Figmo,

Drake still pops one out once in a while. _The Sharp End_ was the last one, but _The Voyage_ is set in the same world. Fun books.


victorhauser,

I've noticed the same sort of squirelly thing. The 'to hit' percentages really don't seem to mean much at all. There have been quite a few times when I've hit more with 2% shots than 85% shots. I don't know what causes it, but it can be annoying....

[Paul Vebber]

this was brought up before - hit percent for infantry casualties is not a "roll less than this number to get an efect" but a "multiply the adjusted "firepower' of the shot by the hit chance. For very big shells that typically means 1 or more casualties are almost certain to occur, becasue of the size of the area of effect given the hex size.

[Venger]

Well that certainly blows, somehow an SU-122 must have some type of precision airburst HE round that detonates directly over my emplacement. Blah, that makes no sense. Hitting a gun crew from 25 hexes ought to be damn difficult, not something incurring 1 casualty. Now I understand units running across the fields reenacting Pickett's charge incurring heavy damage from certain fire types (grazing MG fire for example), but a moving SU-122 or IS-3 should not get a guaranteed casualty on an entrenched gun unit from 25 hexes. Just shouldn't be. Hopefully they've addressed this somewhat in 3.0...

Venger

[John T_MatrixForum]

Originally posted by victorhauser:
This bug has been around since v1.0 of SPWaW. I've reported it in several different threads, but it is not yet recognized as a bug. Also, it is not limited to ISU-122s.
<Snip>

Paul, I think Victor got something.
I have had the same experience of suddenly one unit just can't fail.

There might be a variable somewhere that is not cleared.
Assume that that most of the time you units fire at similar range and targets, then no one will ever find the bug.
BUT if you fire at range 1 and then switch to another unit someting wicked resides in memory that should not. Or whatever caused this unit to get a silly value somewhere.

If it's a bug then it's a real bugger of a bug to debug.


/John T.

[Kharan]

My impression certainly is that on some battles, every artillery shell gets 1 kill (regardless of LOS, terrain, caliber), and on some battles they just don't do much (and it's not because I had fast arty on ).

Paul, do you think casualties caused by artillery could appear on the log? Then there would be no "penalty" in using fast arty ('cept of course the sound), because arty and plane tank hits are displayed on the log.

[victorhauser]

I don't want to belabor this issue, but the bug I've reported (in this thread yesterday and in other threads in weeks past) has nothing to do with unit type, unit size, hit %, experience, terrain, warhead size, or any other factor that might modify a unit's chance to inflict casualties.

What I'm saying is that on occasion during every SPWaW game I've ever played from v1.0 to v2.3, every now and again one of my units will go on a killing spree for that turn and hit with every single weapon it fires. I've had bazooka teams (BigJim can verify this one since I killed one of his Tigers in a PBEM with this one), tanks, halftracks, rifle squads, etc. all go on killing sprees at various times. In the same game that I reported my average US rifle squad wiping out a Japanese elite Type A squad that was in-cover in rough terrain in 5 shots, I had an M3 Command Car (fire control of 0) do the same thing several turns earlier. It was a veteran unit that started the turn with 6:6:6 shots firing against a Japanese Type A squad in-cover on a hillside at 5 or 6 hex range. Bang-.50cal hit, bang-.30cal hit, bang-.30cal hit. Now at 5:5:5 shots. Bang bang bang, .50 .30 .30 all hit. Now at 4:4:4. Bang bang bang, three more hits. Now at 3:3:3. Bang bang bang, three more hits. Now at 2:2:2. Bang bang bang three more hits. Now at 1:1:1 and the elite in-cover Japanese Type squad (250% toughness) is all gone. 5 shots, 15 weapons fired, all 15 weapons hit, all with under 10% to hit displayed.

As John T said, sometimes one or more of my (and his) units simply cannot fail--they hit with each and every weapon they fire that turn. No matter what. I've seen it happen at least once in every game of SPWaW I've played.

[crazyivan]

i myself am fighting a long campi 1941-45 russians its late 43 and i have at least 12 su122s and more often than not fial to get a kia on a enemy squad even when its moving in the open but when the % go up it helps and being a large HE round often leads to surrounding units being hit as well .
but in real life any thing over 75mm fired direct (HE) was some what shore of a kill that flying shrapnel was a real killer.

[Paul Vebber]

IT could be that there is a bug at work, but every time I carefully record the results and compare to the expected outcome there is not sufficient deviation to call the routine into question.

The routine for applying infantry casualties is very complex, bouncing between several routines. There many well be cases where it "gets stuck in a loop" because of certain circumstances and the result is a unit going on a killing spree. That may have been intentional on Gary's part as on occasion a unit "gets hot" and mows down dozens of guys did happen. As you say, that has been there since the beginning and may well be a "bug" or a cunningly planned "feature" Gary designed in.

As with many "default settings", if you think it "blows" this can be toned down by turning infantry toughness up. Using higher experience troops also make them less vulnerable to getting killed.

We will continue to keep an eye out to see if there is a "bug"...


As to the results of artillery barrages showing in the "results window" I think they do - I know I see a huge list of all the shots fired by OBA at the end of the turn.

[Kharan]

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
As to the results of artillery barrages showing in the "results window" I think they do - I know I see a huge list of all the shots fired by OBA at the end of the turn.

So the final 3.0 results window shows not only what artillery hit or an airstrike did to a tank ("122mm Btr firing indirect - T-34 hit in front turret - main gun optics destroyed") but also how many casualties were inflicted to infantry? That's pretty neat. But I'm not going to hang you even if it doesn't .

[Tombstone]

I've run into the bug that Victorhauser is talking about several times, but I have also found that direct fire high caliber attacks 105mm+ tends to get 1 kill (or more).

Tomo

[Nikademus]

I've seen it. many many times, but not with ISU-122's. The biggest culprit is the bolt action rifle or other small arms weapons.

Its always been my one great pet-peeve with the SP-III game engine. If it did'nt happen so frequently i would'nt mind, after all a 1%or 2% chance (base before other mods) may not be much, but it 'could' still happen.

Problem is, is that it happens far too often.

most glaring example i had recently was a Soviet advance vs a German delay in 45. Elite Soviet troops took on Green German Volksgrenadiers desperately trying to hold up the advance on Berlin.

Despite their far lower than the usual German standard exp ratings (LMG's excepted and boy were they trouble!) I was still subjected to fairly frequent hits by these half trained 2nd liners even from long range.
(and even with me being very careful, advancing slowly and under cover terrain)

And i'll tell ya, 1 or 2 casualties may not seem like much, but in a scenerio where one does'nt have brigade sized forces those little casualties add up very quickly. I tend to treat elite troops as the battle winners they are, but also because they dont grow on trees so seeing them get whittled away in non point blank situations gets frustrating fast.

Paul and the Matrix gang have gone to great lengths to explain why this quirk happens so often (the major culprit seems to be that the primary weapon slot of an infantry unit litterally gets to fire X # of times per fire round based on the # of men) and even went so far as to mix things up a bit by making exp of the unit be a factor in determining how many rifles/SMG's fire per round.

But i'm still seeing it a bit and it does continue to grate a tad....especially in situations where rifles of an infantry gun are scoring more than the gun itself!

ah well.....maybe ver 3 will address this one peeve i have with the modified game engine.

[Scipio Africanus]

Hi Paul,
I'm the one who posted the report some time ago which concerned the "million to one" set of pistol kills (successive 2-3% chances all hitting). Your explanation of the combat system was helpful in understanding that because the percentage is not a simple hit or miss calculation, but depends on weapons and numbers of men, successive low percentage hits are not as unlikely as they would seem.

That being said, I have experienced many other odd things with successive low percentage shots similar to what has been posted here. It often seems that if a unit firing small arms gets a hit at 2-3% on its first shot, it will "lock on" and hit on every successive shot that turn, regardless of percentages. What is notable about this is that the return fire can sometimes come in at 15-25% , yet have very little effect on the "locked on berserk unit."

As you say, it may be that the original code has instructions to allow units to "get hot". This is an understandable random factor (Steel Panthers isn't chess after all- we're not always dealing with known quantities), but as a random factor goes (if that is indeed what it is), it seems to occur quite a bit more than one might expect.

Cheers

------------------
Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus

[Paul Vebber]

We appreciate observations of this type. It helps us understand what the somtimes inscrutible code is doing

aside - while we have a PRETTY GOOD idea what is going on, trying to figure out what thousands of lines of undocumented C code is doing is often like one explanation of high energy phyics - imagine taking an intricate swiss watch - shooting it with rifle bullets of different types and trying to figure out how it works by the pieces that fly off Sometimes we are reduced to changing something and observing the bugs that appear and from that figure out how things work!!

We will keep investigating to figure out if this is is just a random manifestation of luck or truely something deep in "the machine" at work.

That takes input like this to find how how often these sortsof "probability warps" appear to be happening, and under what conditions.

[Paul Vebber]

I just tried firing a whole bunch of SU-122 shots at various ranges at German infantry both entrenched and not and found ven the ones in the open, occasionally escaped without a casualty, those entrenched did so fairly often.