naval bombardment.

[MDDgames]

My understanding was that naval forces bombing a base must first defeat the shore guns before other targets can be hit.

This is not working. The following Unit went untouched, yet the airfield was flattened. There are other land units in the hex with DP guns as well. If the limitation is CDU units only, this kind of screws the Jap player huge because he only gets 2 or 3 mobile CDUs.

Also, the shore guns never fired back at him. He hit with CAs, CLs, and DDs.

[MDDgames]

In the same vein, this unit was sitting in the Merak hex (straights off the left side of Java) and never fired at ships passing through the straight. This was several months back.

[HansBolter]

I don't believe your understanding is correct.

If the shore bombardment force is set to bombard from outside the range of the coastal defense guns they can and will bombard with complete impunity never being fired on by the shore guns.

Its all dependent on the size of the guns which determines the range of the guns on both sides.

[dr.hal]

Like Hans, I'm not sure your basic assumption is correct. I've never silenced a shore battery while conducting bombardment even if the range is close enough for the battery to engage. I don't recall reading about such a rule in either the manual or any of the follow-on upgrades. Hal

[Crackaces]

My understanding was that naval forces bombing a base must first defeat the shore guns before other targets can be hit.

Although I have certainly have been plastered by CD guns that I have failed to neutralize, it is quite possible for platforms set for the bombardment mission to engage other targets in the hex including port facilities, the airfields and LCU's in the hex. If Allied and IJ LCU's share the hex I believe the LCU's receive the brunt of the attack. I would suspect a die roll and subsequent modifiers for what targets are engaged ..

Putting platforms to support an amphib operation I see primary engagement of the CD's LCU's and more so than the other LCU's until the CD's are neutralized. Typically the invader hopes that land combat neutralizes the CD's because if this situation is allowed to continue the invasion force can be smacked by CD's the next turn(s) ..[8D]

[Spidery]

In the same vein, this unit was sitting in the Merak hex (straights off the left side of Java) and never fired at ships passing through the straight. This was several months back.

There are wide and narrow straits, Merak is not listed as a narrow strait in section 20.3 of the manual.

In section 4.2.1.3 of the manual it says:

Vulnerability to attack by Coastal Guns: Task Forces moving
through straits are more likely to be attacked by coastal guns that
are located in the hexes either side of the strait hexside.

The "more likely" I think is important, there is no guarantee that CD guns will engage in a strait and, in particular, a wide strait.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: MDDgames

In the same vein, this unit was sitting in the Merak hex (straights off the left side of Java) and never fired at ships passing through the straight. This was several months back.

You should consult Appendix C on straits, as well as Section 4.2.1.3.

[Captain Cruft]

The Hong Kong Def Force doesn't have any actual CD guns either. Those devices are "Army Weapons", which only fire on ships when they are unloading troops.

[MDDgames]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I don't believe your understanding is correct.

If the shore bombardment force is set to bombard from outside the range of the coastal defense guns they can and will bombard with complete impunity never being fired on by the shore guns.

Its all dependent on the size of the guns which determines the range of the guns on both sides.

Unlikly he set bombardment range to 18 (which is the only range where the DDs could fire and the DP guns couldnt) since he has no idea what units are in the hex. Plus I think it unlikely he would have caused as much damage as he did at max range with the small force he had. Also since his subs have been on station since the beginning of the game, not moving (which makes them useless when under an ASW air umbrella) he probably hasnt set a range, thus using the default settings.

[MDDgames]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

The Hong Kong Def Force doesn't have any actual CD guns either. Those devices are "Army Weapons", which only fire on ships when they are unloading troops.

Well, then this is wrong and should be changed, since the unit itself is a type "Coastal Defense Unit", wouldnt you think? (look at the unit icon for proof).

Edit, and seems to me, if the naval vessels are shooting, then land units (army or otherwise) can shoot back if they are in range. Im reasonably sure the 105mms at Guadalcanal probably fired back at Japanese bombardment groups when they started shooting. Im not a gun bunny, but if I was and I was there, I would be shooting back with anything I could down to and including my M-1.

As a friend once told me when they were quick firing M113 mounted 81mm mortars "if the rounds land somewhere in Europe, Im happy". At least theyre shooting.

[Miller]

Small force?

bombardment of Ailinglaplap at 133,117

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 351 damaged
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 9 destroyed on ground
A6M2 Zero: 310 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 16 destroyed on ground
E13A1 Jake: 70 damaged
E13A1 Jake: 5 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
CA Frobisher
CA Australia
CA Wichita
CA Vincennes
CA Quincy
CA San Francisco
CA Minneapolis
CA Astoria
CA Pensacola
CA Chester
CA Indianapolis
CL Trenton
CL Detroit
CL Richmond
CL Birmingham
CL Mauritius
CL Hobart
CL Perth
CL Achilles
CL Leander
DD Saufley
DD Radford
DMS Chandler
DMS Lamberton
DMS Trevor

Japanese ground losses:
162 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 33 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 8 (1 destroyed, 7 disabled)
Vehicles lost 10 (2 destroyed, 8 disabled)

Airbase hits 78
Airbase supply hits 25
Runway hits 172

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: MDDgames

Well, then this is wrong and should be changed, since the unit itself is a type "Coastal Defense Unit", wouldnt you think? (look at the unit icon for proof).

Unit designations do not always mean they are of that type. CD designation assigns special code to the unit that the dev's likely wanted to apply. I think you're a little 'young' to be taking the attitude that the game is in error. As already pointed out, there are numerous "operator error" items that could easily have accounted for the results.

The "gun bunnies" as you refer to them have weighed in on this before (army howitzers engaging naval forces) in detail which you would know if you had made the effort to search first. You may pleasure yourself with a search in the general forum for their thoughts. I can hardly wait for one of them to see your reference. No doubt they will be thrilled to assist you here with your difficulty.

[MDDgames]

I am wondering what point you were trying to make?

Did a quickie google search for artillery firing back at shore bombarding ships. Already knowing the answer (yes they DID shoot back), I didnt look too long before I found that according to records from DDs Frankford, Doyle, and Emmons at Normandy, they were indeed shot at by light artillery and often hit.

Im going to project that if the Germans did it at Normandy, it would not be too far fetched to believe that it was standard practice in the Pacific as well.

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/destroyersatnormandy.htm

Note, it specifically said light artillery, not shore guns. Therefore, not only shore guns in the target hex should be shooting back, but every artillery piece in range, including mortars.

Now, I think its time to fix this hole in the game. Michael, what say you?

[MDDgames]

double post

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: MDDgames
I am wondering what point you were trying to make?
...what say you?

WAD

[KenchiSulla]

If you do not take range into account - 12cm and 8cm guns are really wimpy compared to the 8 inch/20cm guns of heavy cruisers.... They are ok for disrupting transports but do not expect anything against warships...

[MDDgames]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If you do not take range into account - 12cm and 8cm guns are really wimpy compared to the 8 inch/20cm guns of heavy cruisers.... They are ok for disrupting transports but do not expect anything against warships...

The point is, they DIDNT SHOOT AT ALL. I dont care HOW "wimpy" they are.

[MDDgames]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: MDDgames
I am wondering what point you were trying to make?
...what say you?

WAD

Didnt ask you. Dont care what your opinion is. I asked Michael. Because his is the only opinion that matters.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: MDDgames

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: MDDgames
I am wondering what point you were trying to make?
...what say you?

WAD

Didnt ask you. Dont care what your opinion is. I asked Michael. Because his is the only opinion that matters.

I predict you will have a brief and unhappy AE experience.

[Miller]

ORIGINAL: MDDgames

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: MDDgames
I am wondering what point you were trying to make?
...what say you?

WAD

Didnt ask you. Dont care what your opinion is. I asked Michael. Because his is the only opinion that matters.

So who is this Michael? I hope he comments on this.......