Armata & Kruganets are alive

[ivanov]

I has been a good day for the heavy metal fans. Some more photos of the infamous Russian T-14 Armata tank and the Kurganets-25 IFV have been leaked.

Armata:


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Kruganets:


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bk-wgWOTiA

[battlerbritain]

Interesting.

Bottom picture looks like it's got 'Chobham'-style slabs hung off the side ala Warrior. New body shape and road wheels so not a re-build/re-use of a previous vehicle.

[ivanov]

Yes, it looks like a completely new design. I'm actually surprised because given the current troubles, the Russians managed to came up with something, that actually looks quite neat and solid. In my opinion there's a clear influence of the Israeli designs. I'd be interesting to see the western response, however from what we know, the Americans will continue to upgrade their M-1 fleet. The Germans and the French start talking about a new tank ( possible Leopard 3 ), but it won't materialize before 2030. So it is possible, that when Armata is fully operational, we may finally see the end of a long era when the M-1, Leopard 2, or Challenger had no real competition on the battlefields.

[Rebel Yell]

There won't be any response from the west, because the Armata won't be built in any kind of numbers to speak of.

From the Moscow Herald:

Amazingly, Borisov then voiced exactly the same conclusion that former Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and his superior, former Chief of the General Staff Nikolai Makarov, had reached five years earlier. "We discovered that we can spend less money to reach the same goal," Borisov said.

"Today we can say that the T-72 tank — thanks to its new onboard equipment, gunner sights, guidance systems, ammunition and active and passive defense capabilities — has a far greater combat effectiveness than previous models. Accordingly, that brings up the principle of 'reasonable sufficiency,'" he said. As for the Armata, he said, "we have no need to rush forward with that project today."

...
Now, UralVagonZavod specialized machinery director Vyacheslav Khalitov has announced that the factory will produce only two dozen or so new tanks. They will make an appearance in the Victory Day parade in Moscow on May 9 and then return to the factory to complete production by year's end.

Thus, the Russian people will see semi-finished tanks fit only for a parade, but that are many months away from any serious use. And even then the tanks will spend three years undergoing operational testing in the military, with mass production slated to begin in 2018

[batteran]

The officials objectives for T-14 russian Armata tank is 2300 units by 2020. It is a number to speak of!

More importantly, If Russians forces modernize their tank fleet with T-14, wathever number it is, that probably mean that the actual fleet of last T-72 versions, T-80 and so will be on sale for a bargain ^^

[CapnDarwin]

I wouldn't be looking for frontline tanks on eBay any time soon. If history has taught us, the Russians don't throw out anything that was intended for frontline use.

[TheWombat_matrixforum]

The real question as always is not whether the Russians can make cutting-edge tanks--they can--but whether they can afford to make enough of them. Without any substantial export market (and the number of countries that can afford/need an Armata-type tank and don't already make their own is small), that leaves only domestic consumption, and the Russian economy isn't exactly thriving at this point. I think "reasonable sufficiency" is a smart way to go. Unless Putin is seriously off his rocker, there's not much chance of Russia having to engage in pitched tank battles with a comparable foe, so, yeah, T-72s and their ilk, properly modified, are probably good enough.

Though one would think that, eventually, they'd have to start fielding larger numbers of newer tanks but hey, in the West we're comfortable with holding on to stuff for decades ourselves, so we can't talk.

[ivanov]

ORIGINAL: TheWombat

The real question as always is not whether the Russians can make cutting-edge tanks--they can--but whether they can afford to make enough of them. Without any substantial export market (and the number of countries that can afford/need an Armata-type tank and don't already make their own is small), that leaves only domestic consumption, and the Russian economy isn't exactly thriving at this point.

I'm pretty sure that Armata will be always cheaper than the Western counterparts, so it will be attractive on the growing market of the developing countries. I can also imagine, that in case of failure of the developement of domestic designs, the license may be sold to India or to China. It's also worth noting, that the Russian armed forces concept is changing. In the future, it will be more similar to Western style militaries, than to the mass conscript army of the ex Soviet Union. It's still a long way to go, but the general trend of the changes - that are currently being implement - is quite clear.

[Mad Russian]

I don't think China is a market for Soviet equipment any more. They are making their own domestic designs these days.

Good Hunting.

MR

[ivanov]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

I don't think China is a market for Soviet equipment any more. They are making their own domestic designs these days.

Good Hunting.

MR

Well, you know there is always much talk about the new Chinese domestic designs, yet they always somehow end up stealing the American technical documentation or coping the Russian designs [8|]

[batteran]

ORIGINAL: katukov

I'm pretty sure that Armata will be always cheaper than the Western counterparts, so it will be attractive on the growing market of the developing countries.

About the cheaper Vs costly tanks, I forget where I read that, but I remeber that Saddam buy many russian tanks before and in the irak-iran war.

The piece prices of these soviets T-55 and T-72 where divided by 3 (about 500k$ instead of 1.5M$) beacuse Saddam don't want the infrared sigth, or advanced firing controls, ect.

In a modern tank, I bet that the "top technologies" make about 4/5th of the tank price or more! The rest (steel, gun, engine, traks and so on) is a bargain.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: katukov

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

I don't think China is a market for Soviet equipment any more. They are making their own domestic designs these days.

Good Hunting.

MR

Well, you know there is always much talk about the new Chinese domestic designs, yet they always somehow end up stealing the American technical documentation or coping the Russian designs [8|]

That's how they get new domestic designs.

Good Hunting.

MR

[TheWombat_matrixforum]

ORIGINAL: katukov

ORIGINAL: TheWombat

The real question as always is not whether the Russians can make cutting-edge tanks--they can--but whether they can afford to make enough of them. Without any substantial export market (and the number of countries that can afford/need an Armata-type tank and don't already make their own is small), that leaves only domestic consumption, and the Russian economy isn't exactly thriving at this point.

I'm pretty sure that Armata will be always cheaper than the Western counterparts, so it will be attractive on the growing market of the developing countries. I can also imagine, that in case of failure of the developement of domestic designs, the license may be sold to India or to China. It's also worth noting, that the Russian armed forces concept is changing. In the future, it will be more similar to Western style militaries, than to the mass conscript army of the ex Soviet Union. It's still a long way to go, but the general trend of the changes - that are currently being implement - is quite clear.

It'll be cheaper, but cheap is relative to economic resources; if the Russian economy is weaker than the West's, the tank would have to be commensurately cheaper than Western models to remain feasible. This could be the case, it's impossible to tell right now, but the sophistication of the Armata and like designs argues for possibly substantial increases in overall costs compared to the past, even if the total bill is less than a new Western tank. It will be interesting to see, for sure.

As for export, even a tank that is somewhat less expensive than a tricked-out Western tank is probably going to be too expensive for most countries to buy in numbers that will impact the production levels in Russia significantly enough to reduce unit costs sufficiently to make the tank affordable in quantity. But again, it's a fluid situation, and changing allegiances and politics can make a lot of things possible.

All I know is that the Armata looks wicked cool and I want one.

[Alex1812]

IFV Kurganets-25, APC Boomerang (at the end of video) and many others:

https://youtu.be/0nz_zY0rXyg?t=4m

[Mad Russian]

Wow...somebody needs to tell him to hold the camera still.

Good Hunting.

MR

[batteran]

ORIGINAL: Alex1812

IFV Kurganets-25, APC Boomerang (at the end of video) and many others:

https://youtu.be/0nz_zY0rXyg?t=4m

WW2 gear in the middle: Su-85 and T34-85 ^^ (immobiles and alone ones at 7:00)

What's is that demo for?

[Ardi]

ORIGINAL: batteran
What's is that demo for?

Repetition of Victory Day parade.

[ivanov]

I have to say they look pretty sweet...


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[TheWombat_matrixforum]

Well, the people selling tarps are making out like bandits at least!

[CapnDarwin]

[:D] points for TheWombat.