Inudstrial damage after shock attack

[ITAKLinus]

Hi everyone,

I come here with a relatively simple question. How to avoid damage to industries after a shock attack?

What I'd like to understand is:
1) If I surround the city and I shock attack capturing it, are industries kept intact since there are no surviving/escaping ENG?
2) Is there any way to minimize the damage with shock attacks? Broadly speaking, I have noticed that cities are either captured completely intact with zero damage or completely (100%) trashed.


To be clear: I have used the "search" button but there are only a couple of topics on shock in general and not about shock on completely surrounded cities.


I am going to attack Sidney (beginning of April '42) but I'd like to know whether I can simply shock and f*@k off or if I have to grind it through many deliberate. I don't know whether I have the AV to get the magic 2:1 through repeated deliberate (I have only 12 divisions for the task and I guess between 1,000 and 1,500AV inside the city).


Thanks to anyone who will answer.

[BBfanboy]

Back when I was using the last official patch (.1124) it was possible to capture cites that were vacant of enemy troops with no damage to industry at all (the city flipped either before the Allies arrived or on a minimal DA by the first units). So it was possible to end up with Japanese armament and vehicle and aircraft factories in Allied hands! This has changed in the Betas - I changed to 1125a when Win 10 was forced on me), and I think so has the industry/facilities damage algorithm during capture by combat.

It used to be that 50% of HI was automatically destroyed during capture but the remaining HI could also be damaged. Now it appears that 50% survives as damaged and a small additional amount may be still operational. I have had limited experience with the beta so I can't say for sure if this pattern is consistent.

Base and port facilities are subject to die roll for damage. In the past the number of enemy engineers present seemed to affect how much damage was done to facilities, but I seem to recall Alfred saying that the result is entirely determined by the die roll - i.e. engineers and combat engineers do not cause increased damage. I have given up trying to work the system to minimize damage - you get what you get and save a lot of time by accepting the fates.

[HansBolter]

First of all, you cannot expect to take a garrisoned major base with substantial fort levels with a shock attack right out of the starting gate.

All you will likely get for your money is a badly damaged assault force.


Reducing siege hexes is all about the siege.

If you don't have the stomach for siege battles you probably shouldn't be playing this game.

And no, there is no way to control or minimize damage to facilities from shock attacks.

Shock attacks should only be used with overwhelming superiority or against a force that has been beaten down and likely has more disabled, than able squads.

This means after you have already reduced the level 7-9 forts to level 2 or less through repeated deliberate attacks that have left the defenders with more disabled than able squads.

See my thread on The Cost of Heavy Urban Level 9 Fort Reduction for an idea of what needs to be done.

[ITAKLinus]

[/quote]

This means after you have already reduced the level 7-9 forts to level 2 or less through repeated deliberate attacks that have left the defenders with more disabled than able squads.

It's what I meant. I have the fear of being unable to make the last jump to obtain the 2:1 even after I have reduced forts and some of the AVs inside the base. At that point, I would like to shock to get the 2:1 and capture the city.

Considering that's a PBEM and that I don't have infinite time to be invested in long sieges, I need a relatively quick capture of the city. I simply cannot afford to make it finish its supplies and kill one squad after the other.


In my other PBEM I had the terrible experience of a well-entrenched force in Calcutta which lasted for 6 months until they finally surrendered in June '42 when they finished their supplies. I had 12 divisions attacking those guys and defending the pocket from outside rescue columns. I just want to avoid another Calcutta in this PBEM. Bombay, for example, lasted only few attacks and was relatively easy to capture but it had less than 1,000AVs and of poor quality.

[HansBolter]

I have never had to use a shock attack to finish off a decimated and reduced fortified position.

Once the defenders are beaten down deliberate attacks can easily achieve 2-1 or greater.

My 'finishing' deliberate attacks often achieve 5-7 to 1.


The enemies supply can be drained my many techniques that should all be implemented to the degree possible:

1. Daily ground bombardments on turns when you are not launching deliberate attacks burn enemy supply by forcing counter bombardments.

2. Daily air bombing destroys supply on fortunate hits and forces the burning of supply to fire AA guns.

3. Daily sea bombardments (if a coastal hex) will destroy supply on fortunate hits.

If the hex has 1,000 AV defending it in a fortified position you will simply not be taking it quickly.

And yes, a heavily defended, heavily fortified base in any kind of terrain beneficial to the defender can easily take 6 months to reduce.

[ITAKLinus]

That's exactly what I don't want... I simply don't have 6 months of time.

In line of principle I hope I'll be able to transform the offensive in a bloodbath and that my 5k AV will overcome his defenses fairly quickly. 8xBBs and 15xCAs in daily bombardaments, plus 200 circa 2E and 100 1E [very nice way to empty their pools with some kind of results on the match] should do the trick. Plus the nice heavy art from Manchuria.

In Calcutta I finally got the city through deliberate. Never managed to have decent odds even when they were decimated and out of supplies in front of more than 15 150mm+ units of art with daily bombardaments. That siege traumatized me I think. Got India in the end, but I almost screwed it up.



Don't ask me why but as Japanese I get very bad odds even against decimated enemies if they are in good terrains. And it doesn't really matter the number of combatENG I have: their forts take ages to be destroyed.

[HansBolter]

I can relate to all of that.

You really should read my thread referenced above.
I haven't updated it lately but plan to do so soon.

I have been getting abysmal odds and taking blood baths on the Japanese HI fortified cities, but still managing to drop forts with each attack.

I have managed to overcome a few of them in several weeks, but Kagoshima has dragged on for at least 6 months.

[BBfanboy]

OK, I just got an actual documented example - stock scenario 1, Allied DA at Harbin against a small IJ unit. Industrial status before the attack checked from the Japanese side (to ensure actual figures) and afterward from the triumphant Allied side (to ensure accuracy- the IJ side rollover still showed pre-attack values).

HARBIN INDUSTRY

Manpower - Pre attack 16 (0) Post Attack 2 (1) (25% automatic reduction in total minus one destroyed?)

Resources - Pre attack 400 (0) Post Attack 316 (84) (battle damage only, no destruction)

HI - Pre attack 43 (107) Post Attack 17 (65) (50% of the operating HI automatically destroyed [21 or 22 points] and another 4 or 5 points damaged by the attack. 50% of damaged HI automatically destroyed [54 or 53 points], 4 points from the operating HI damaged added, and 8 points ? from unknown calculation.

LI - Pre attack 80 (58) Post Attack 64 (16) Operating points kept and 16 points battle damage while all pre-attack damaged LI points eliminated?

Aircraft Factory Pre attack 2 (98) Post Attack changed to Vehicle Factory 0 (24) reduced to 25% of previous total and one point rounding error because operating factories were less than 4 ?

EDIT: Airfield and Forts

Post attack:
Airfield SPS (7) Actual 6 + 3% construction progress
Airfield damage 95 % Airfield services damage 2%

Forts: 4 reduced to 0

[Yaab]

HARBIN INDUSTRY

LI - Pre attack 80 (58) Post Attack 64 (16) Operating points kept and 16 points battle damage while all pre-attack damaged LI points eliminated?

Aircraft Factory Pre attack 2 (98) Post Attack changed to Vehicle Factory 0 (24) reduced to 25% of previous total and one point rounding error because operating factories were less than 4 ?

The disapperance of the 58 damaged LI centers after conquest is actually CRAZY!