War Plan Versus SC War in Europe

[ThunderLizard11]

Can people who played both give me some comparative comments? In particular, which has a stronger AI?

[Flaviusx]

The AI seems pretty comparable to me. But there's also more room for improvement in War Plan because it is a fresh product.

I can beat SC at the highest settings. I am not sure I can do that with War Plan.

I frankly like this game better, but enjoy both. I may even take the PBEM plunge with War Plan, because it looks more fun to me on that score.

[Worg64]

I love both games and have just played my first full war 39-45 in warplan.
The naval and movement in war plan is superior to SC. The current AI scripting for SC might be a bit better but then SC has been on the market for years. The developer for war plan is constantly working to make the game AI better. I think this game with some finetuning will be a favorite for years for many war gamers.

[pzgndr]

The biggest difference is that WarPlan introduces oil and manpower management that SC does not have. And there are combat differences where WarPlan introduces multi-hex attacks and changes to naval combat/interception. So there's a bit more detail to make this game more realistic in many respects. However, with the new features and additional detail comes additional complexity. Some adjustments for play balance should be expected, and Al is working on that. But also the additional complexity makes it more difficult to program a challenging computer opponent. Al has done a good job on the AI for initial release, and he is working on improvements. WarPlan is a nice addition to the WWII grand strategy genre, between SC and WiF. It will improve with age!

[Zovs]

I have most of the SC games (SCWIE, SC3:WIE and SC3:WAW) and WP.

For me WP is easy to learn and get into right from the first click. The interface is very clean and intuitive and so is the general game mechanics if your used to either traditional board war games or easy playing computer war games. The harder part is learning and developing your strategic directions and planning out how to implement that in the grand scheme of things which includes which production items to build.

[AlvaroSousa]

Time will improve the tactical and strategic A.I. It is one of the most difficult parts to get right in terms of time because you have to test code over and over and over then have a human break it.

[ThunderLizard11]

Sounds good. Any plans to bring to Steam?

[bcgames]

WarPlan hands down! It decreases the scales down "one level more" and that makes it super interesting for me. I generally shy away from these strategic level games on WWII--but end up throwing my money at them anyway. But...I like WarPlan ALOT. That like comes from PBEM play so adjust your decisions accordingly.

[demyansk]

Good comments guys, thanks for the details.

[AlvaroSousa]

I let Matrix handle all the marketing and sales so I can focus on coding and scenarios.

[Fintilgin]

I think at the moment the SC AI is stronger, but the Warplan AI has more potential?

Warplan AI seems to struggle with certain things like basic garrison logic. In my Axis campaign I took places like Cairo, Kursk, MOSCOW, Stalingrad, Baku because the AI left them completely empty and ungarrisoned. The AI didn't seem to respond to serious threats, like when I invade Persia and blitzed into the undefended Caucuses, the AI never shifted or railed a single unit down to defend the area and I just drove north in the worlds easiest offensive. Allied AI when invading would (multiple times!) also do things that were extremely painful to watch, like invade an undefended port and then immediately advance those units inland, leaving the port and only supply source empty and undefended.

I'm impressed by the aggression of the Allied invasion AI though. They hit me in places I didn't expect, in ways that seem unscripted, and I understand people have seem the German AI at least ATTEMPT Sealion, which should help keep Allied players a bit more 'honest'.

I liked that the Allied AI did an all-out invasion in the summer of 1943. Less thrilled that they did it into 1/2 the German army that had been relocated to France.

The Russian AI just sort of.... retreated and melted away. I had absolute possession of every single Russian city and resource on the map including Siberia (except Murmansk lol) by December 1942. Ooof.

I'm optimistic that with some tweaks and love the AI will improve, but even clicking difficulty on both levels up by 2 for my first game it was not even remotely challenging. The game does have a great 'one more turn' feeling though, and I hope the AI gets a boost over time!

[ThunderLizard11]

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin

I think at the moment the SC AI is stronger, but the Warplan AI has more potential?

Warplan AI seems to struggle with certain things like basic garrison logic. In my Axis campaign I took places like Cairo, Kursk, MOSCOW, Stalingrad, Baku because the AI left them completely empty and ungarrisoned. The AI didn't seem to respond to serious threats, like when I invade Persia and blitzed into the undefended Caucuses, the AI never shifted or railed a single unit down to defend the area and I just drove north in the worlds easiest offensive. Allied AI when invading would (multiple times!) also do things that were extremely painful to watch, like invade an undefended port and then immediately advance those units inland, leaving the port and only supply source empty and undefended.

I'm impressed by the aggression of the Allied invasion AI though. They hit me in places I didn't expect, in ways that seem unscripted, and I understand people have seem the German AI at least ATTEMPT Sealion, which should help keep Allied players a bit more 'honest'.

I liked that the Allied AI did an all-out invasion in the summer of 1943. Less thrilled that they did it into 1/2 the German army that had been relocated to France.

The Russian AI just sort of.... retreated and melted away. I had absolute possession of every single Russian city and resource on the map including Siberia (except Murmansk lol) by December 1942. Ooof.

I'm optimistic that with some tweaks and love the AI will improve, but even clicking difficulty on both levels up by 2 for my first game it was not even remotely challenging. The game does have a great 'one more turn' feeling though, and I hope the AI gets a boost over time!

Helpful feedback. I think I'll wait a while for this to get fixed. Hoi4 had and has same issues so I'm always concerned when I read these type of comments. Sounds like dev is good so I'll check back after first few patches.

[Fintilgin]

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

Helpful feedback. I think I'll wait a while for this to get fixed. Hoi4 had and has same issues so I'm always concerned when I read these type of comments. Sounds like dev is good so I'll check back after first few patches.

There's a lot to like about the game. Auto repair and upgrade means turns keep moving and you're always doing 'fun' things. Joint attacks and the ability for infantry to move attack move etc makes the game feel very fluid. It's got a strong 'one more turn' feeling.

I was pleased by things like Allied attempt at Operation Torch. I took North Africa in 1940, put a small German defense force in Morocco where I expected them to land, and a couple Italian garrisons in Algiers and Tunisia. A purely scripted AI would have just thrown the assault into my prepped Germans in Morocco. This tends to be how SC works in my experience. Instead the US went past Gibraltar and unloaded like 6-7 units at the undefended port of Oran. Nice! Then they moved the bulk of their forces out into the mountains and deserts to the south east, left the port undefended and starved to death in the Sahara. But still!

Anyway, it's definitely worth keeping an eye on. [:)]

[ThunderLizard11]

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

Helpful feedback. I think I'll wait a while for this to get fixed. Hoi4 had and has same issues so I'm always concerned when I read these type of comments. Sounds like dev is good so I'll check back after first few patches.

There's a lot to like about the game. Auto repair and upgrade means turns keep moving and you're always doing 'fun' things. Joint attacks and the ability for infantry to move attack move etc makes the game feel very fluid. It's got a strong 'one more turn' feeling.

I was pleased by things like Allied attempt at Operation Torch. I took North Africa in 1940, put a small German defense force in Morocco where I expected them to land, and a couple Italian garrisons in Algiers and Tunisia. A purely scripted AI would have just thrown the assault into my prepped Germans in Morocco. This tends to be how SC works in my experience. Instead the US went past Gibraltar and unloaded like 6-7 units at the undefended port of Oran. Nice! Then they moved the bulk of their forces out into the mountains and deserts to the south east, left the port undefended and starved to death in the Sahara. But still!

Anyway, it's definitely worth keeping an eye on. [:)]

Can you select what traits to auto upgrade? In SC I usually don't want mobility upgrade as it's too expensive for all units but always want weapons upgrade.

Your AI example seems to show that the game is still early days.

[Fintilgin]

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

Can you select what traits to auto upgrade? In SC I usually don't want mobility upgrade as it's too expensive for all units but always want weapons upgrade.

Your AI example seems to show that the game is still early days.

It's not like SC at all. Tech is.... barely there. Once you get a tech upgrade units will just randomly upgrade (for free?) over time and get combat bonuses. Nothing as dramatic as SC mobility.

You do earn some sort of army xp(?) over time that can be used to specialize a unit by giving it heavy artillery or engineers. I think these bonuses are all positive.


As for AI, after I wrote that, I'm gonna pull back on the scripted thing a bit. 1944 - After conquering Russia I launch a late Operation Sealion. Massed American and British forces respond by leaving England to... invade Brittany and Normandy. [:-]

[ThunderLizard11]

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

Can you select what traits to auto upgrade? In SC I usually don't want mobility upgrade as it's too expensive for all units but always want weapons upgrade.

Your AI example seems to show that the game is still early days.

It's not like SC at all. Tech is.... barely there. Once you get a tech upgrade units will just randomly upgrade (for free?) over time and get combat bonuses. Nothing as dramatic as SC mobility.

You do earn some sort of army xp(?) over time that can be used to specialize a unit by giving it heavy artillery or engineers. I think these bonuses are all positive.


As for AI, after I wrote that, I'm gonna pull back on the scripted thing a bit. 1944 - After conquering Russia I launch a late Operation Sealion. Massed American and British forces respond by leaving England to... invade Brittany and Normandy. [:-]

OK - seems like a pretty serious shortcoming for the AI.

[AlvaroSousa]

And this is why I read every post. To adjust the A.I.

[Fintilgin]

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

And this is why I read every post. To adjust the A.I.

While we're on the subject I noticed that the A.I. had thrown down airfield in nearly every rough hex in Britain, hilarious lots of airfields.

Which I guess is... sensible if they have the spare production, but kinda weird looking from an immersion pov.

[AlvaroSousa]

Spare airfields? The A.I. doesn't build airfields.

Can you screen shot it here?

[Worg64]

I have seen this as well in many games the AI build tens of airfields