Cheeze strategies

[AlvaroSousa]

So let's have it. I have been playing 4 games to test balance. I need input on the cheese strategies employed by players that seem to break the game system.

I have heard the following ones.

#1 Russia just runs away and never let's the Germans attack them. There is no incentive for them to defend. I very likely will remedy this but putting factories in the way on a schedule of relocation. And/Or slow down default unit experience gain to force the Russians to fight and defend.

#2 Building mountain units instead of normal units for the Russians. What I might do is reverse logistics and cost. Make it more expensive to buy but normal infantry logistics costs.

#3 Bombing units instead of production - I have made it where you can't do damage to units not in contact with the enemy. This is already in the 1.00.06U4 version.

#4 Invasions - already addressed in the 1.00.06U4 version. In my games I feel reasonably well the defenses for cheese invasion tactics are available to players which will cost cheese invasions dearly.

So list away.

[Franciscus]

re #1, how about to create more Victory points inside Russia (Talinin, Kaunas, Smolensk, Mogilev, Kursk, Kharkov, StalinoOdessa, Sevastopol) ?

[PanzerMike]

#1 how about Russia losing extra manpower points for losing the big population centers? The manual states that urban areas generate morale and manpower. Losing them should hurt. Maybe it doesn't hurt the Soviets enough? I can imagine Stalin was not keen on losing such a large part of the population to the Germans and that this was an incentive to stand and fight in the West.

And the factories sounds like a good idea also.

[Twotribes]

So the plan is to take away any option the Soviets have to survive while still leaving them with shitty units that can NOT fight the Germans?

[AlvaroSousa]

I have 2 games running where it is a mirror game. My opponent took the run away strategy. I decided to fight.

Game #1 Me Allies fought Russian Front - In 1942 he did take key cities like Moscow and Tula pushing toward Archangel. Now it's 1943 and the line has stabilized. I purposely counter attacked. I had a strong Allies this game. He did take Gib by invasion so I invaded Portugal to draw troops away. This is probably a neutral event as the Allies should be in North Africa in 1942.

Game #2 Me Axis Russians 100% ran and didn't fight. In the other game I got close to historical. In 1942 I was still able to do a limited offensive.

It's 1943.
Game #1 Axis are 83% on manpower. Russians making limited attacks in winter. Weaker Germany and Russia
Game #2 Axis are 34% on manpower. Russians making limited attacks in winter. Stronger Germany and Russia (because he didn't inflict losses early but is now inflicting them.

We will see as the game plays out.

[kennonlightfoot]

I thought the Russians took a major hit on manpower, production and logistics when they lose major cities like Moscow, Kursk, Stalingrad, etc.?
The main purpose of a delaying action is so the Axis doesn't reach most of the major cities and Moscow before winter. Which assumes there is a reason for holding these cities as long as you can.

[AlvaroSousa]

Delay is the right strategy but the current one is literally running away. As soon as the Germans hit a line, run away again. Doesn't make it fun for the Axis. But still testing.

[Hairog]

I believe the Germans could advance faster than the Soviets could retreat, especially the civilians. I suggest you slow the soviet units down and reduce their manpower pool with every city taken. As you know, Alvaro, I've long advocated that the Soviets were too mobile.


Constantly retreating would make the units weaker through attrition and just plain shedding equipment like a hiker takes off his parka when it gets warmer. Now he has to carry that parka and does until a bear comes along. then he gets rid of everything but his running shoes.

Have the Soviets take a huge moral hit when they lose certain cities.

Add or increase victory points for certain historical areas that produce food, metal, etc.

All the civilians and Red Army units clogging up the roadways would make it much harder to move the manufacturing equipment to the Urals. Make it so the Reds lose copius factory points when certain cities are captured before certain dates to simulate not being ready or able to move the equipment.

[AlvaroSousa]

There is already a mechanism in place to remove manpower as each city is taken with morale or production.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Hairog

I believe the Germans could advance faster than the Soviets could retreat, especially the civilians. I suggest you slow the soviet units down and reduce their manpower pool with every city taken. As you know, Alvaro, I've long advocated that the Soviets were too mobile.

What are you suggesting? Reducing the number of Operation points of Russian Infantry Large Corps from 5 to 4 or 3? Or, do you want to impact more units?

There is an easy way to see if it improves the situation.

Let's do several Europe 1941 PBEM where the Russian player voluntarily limits its movement to 4 operating points for these units.

[Hairog]

Sounds good. I'll take the Soviets for the first go round. I may be a little slow on getting turns done. Too many projects going on at once.

I'll put the game up.

PM you with secret code.

What version?

[ncc1701e]

I am using the latest 1.00.06. I will not cheat due to the following bug [;)] and I will respect strictly the operation points of my units:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4782858

I have already setup the game. Code sent by PM.

[Hairog]

Sounds good, I accepted.

As I understand it the strategy that's cheesy, is just running away. I'll try that but with one fewer Operational Point.

[ncc1701e]

Will send my first turn shortly.

Allies player:

Play only the Eastern front (no move in Africa / ...)

Just to clarify the house rules, operation points for Russian units:
. Headquarters: 4 pts
. Mechanized corps: 5 pts
. Paratrooper corps: 5 pts
. Armor corps: 6 pts
. Cavalry corps: 7 pts
. Infantry army: 5 pts
. Infantry Large corps: 4 pts

We are changing only the Infantry Large corps from 5 operation points to 4.

Axis player:

I will concentrate only on Eastern front. No move in Africa / ...
I will keep all units on the Western front where they are. No transfer to the East.

[Hairog]

First turn done. I took 1 point off all the units. You'll notice that they all have 1 left. I screwed up on a few but the vast majority have one ops point.

Let's try it that way first. This will simulate the lack of mobility that the initial Soviet units had as well as the ineptness of the Red Army's commanders. They were paralysed from the top down. From what I've read it was across the board and not just large corps.

If it doesn't look good, we'll start another game.

Alvaro: is it hard to have the game change a units ops points after a few turns? Restrict the Reds for 4 turns and then back to your original numbers.

[Hairog]

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

There is already a mechanism in place to remove manpower as each city is taken with morale or production.

You're way ahead of me Alvaro, as usual.

[AlvaroSousa]

I only live to anticipate the needs of my customers.... as long as they are reasonable.

[ncc1701e]

Something I am thinking about, slowing down the Red Army is only part of the solution. Because if there is no incentive to protect the western part of USSR, the Russian player can simply form a defensive line away from the border.

[AlvaroSousa]

Oh yes there is. If you give too much easy room for the Axis they might push much farther than you think. They might not conquer you but they might cripple you enough where you can't go on the offensive in 1943.

[Hairog]

So far more of the Soviet forces are getting cut off but no where near what happened in historical terms. To this point all I've done is run like hell east but I've limited my movement to one less op point. So my units end up with one ops point left.

I've left some units to fight it out where needed to slow down some German units. But the majority are bugging out as per the Cheeze guidelines. I use my air units to attack the lead enemy units and I think this has an effect.

ncc1701e has advance some units very far but the bulk are still too easy to slow down. It's the third turn and I've gotten my first big load of reinforcements. I anticipate being able to close most of my gaps in the line. We'll see.