Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logistics

[KingHalford]

I've not had a chance to test it yet, although from reading the changes on paper I'm concerned that the player might not need to do much there now. It appears to be mostly automated with some minor ways to adjust the flow akin to setting the SHQ's priority levels.

What do people think?

[Falke]

It is too early to give an informed opinion. Basically the pull is satisfied first and rest is evenly distributed which could result in sub-optimal spare capacity for strategic movement/upgrades

[Destragon]

I think the system is currently bugged in that it sends the wrong amount of logistics points around and the points in the logistics log seem to be different from the actual logistics points on the map.
Might have to wait for beta 3 to get a proper impression.

[GodwinW]

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I've not had a chance to test it yet, although from reading the changes on paper I'm concerned that the player might not need to do much there now. It appears to be mostly automated with some minor ways to adjust the flow akin to setting the SHQ's priority levels.

What do people think?

Just see your post now. See what I think here: fb.asp?m=4847102

In short: you are 100% correct. Imo.
I played about 2 hours with it.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I've not had a chance to test it yet, although from reading the changes on paper I'm concerned that the player might not need to do much there now. It appears to be mostly automated with some minor ways to adjust the flow akin to setting the SHQ's priority levels.

What do people think?

I would say it is a improovement.
Finally people got no more excuse to make that "Maze of Traffic Signs", instead of upgrading their Truck Stops already!

[KingHalford]

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I've not had a chance to test it yet, although from reading the changes on paper I'm concerned that the player might not need to do much there now. It appears to be mostly automated with some minor ways to adjust the flow akin to setting the SHQ's priority levels.

What do people think?

Just see your post now. See what I think here: fb.asp?m=4847102

In short: you are 100% correct. Imo.
I played about 2 hours with it.

I've had a quick look now and I feel the same way initially.

This system essentially automates one of the game's more interesting features, and leaving the original system in there creates even more confusion: why bother with the traffic light system when it's more efficient not to use it? Well, one argument might be that the original system was fun to use. Now if you want to keep up in a multiplayer game, everybody will be forced to the pull system, meaning that we're left with what is essentially an automated system (with some small tweaking).

This is a rather unsatisfactory "fix" for an issue that didn't exist in the first place as far as I'm concerned. Very disappointing.

People new to the game will judge it as it comes for sure, but I can't help feel this decision was made to pacify a rather loud minority of players who made some rather hyperbolic claims about the traffic management system as it was, and likely as a defence against the inevitable (and frankly unavoidable) stream of criticism from Steam users when the game hits that platform.

I'll give it a thorough play-through with the new system at some point later in the month once my schedule clears up and see if my initial feelings are correct.

[Sieppo]

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I've not had a chance to test it yet, although from reading the changes on paper I'm concerned that the player might not need to do much there now. It appears to be mostly automated with some minor ways to adjust the flow akin to setting the SHQ's priority levels.

What do people think?

Just see your post now. See what I think here: fb.asp?m=4847102

In short: you are 100% correct. Imo.
I played about 2 hours with it.

I've had a quick look now and I feel the same way initially.

This system essentially automates one of the game's more interesting features, and leaving the original system in there creates even more confusion: why bother with the traffic light system when it's more efficient not to use it? Well, one argument might be that the original system was fun to use. Now if you want to keep up in a multiplayer game, everybody will be forced to the pull system, meaning that we're left with what is essentially an automated system (with some small tweaking).

This is a rather unsatisfactory "fix" for an issue that didn't exist in the first place as far as I'm concerned. Very disappointing.

People new to the game will judge it as it comes for sure, but I can't help feel this decision was made to pacify a rather loud minority of players who made some rather hyperbolic claims about the traffic management system as it was, and likely as a defence against the inevitable (and frankly unavoidable) stream of criticism from Steam users when the game hits that platform.

I'll give it a thorough play-through with the new system at some point later in the month once my schedule clears up and see if my initial feelings are correct.

Well this would just be extremely sad [&:]....[&:]

[JWW]

The current system, the feel of it, is the most realistic of any game I've ever played. And to me managing the logistical system is one of the more enjoyable parts of the game. I don't really care if someone tells me the math of it doesn't really add up right. I found in my first full game that I did not have to do the extensive turn by turn micromanagement that some claim, but I did have to look over the whole system every 3 turns or so when doing offensive operations. And it was fun, at least to me. A challenge. It just feels right, especially when engaged in an offensive and having to manage your extended logistical system. I am concerned about what the end result will be. I hope the final version will be good and that there will be difficulty options for those of us who like the complexity and chaos of the current system.

[Destragon]

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

This system essentially automates one of the game's more interesting features, ...

I think this is the big misunderstanding. It doesn't automate any interesting part of the logistics system. It automates the brainless parts, specifically the following:
- That your assets receive enough logistics points, so that they can actually do the job that you wanted them to do
- Ensure that your units and cities are not starving, when you have enough logistics to supply them, but they are getting wasted by being sent into no man's land

The logistics system is still there. The same amount of decisionmaking is present with the pull system as there was before it.
What the old traffic sign management really was is some sort of math puzzle minigame. You are given point number X and target number Y and you have to use multiple preset percentage blockers to get the right numbers on the tiles where you wanted them to be. There is a correct solution, which is why I call it a puzzle, but I wouldn't really think of it as a good puzzle either. It was mainly about clicking buttons until the logistics did what they were supposed to be doing. In my opinion, this should have never been delegated to the player in the first place. To me this very clearly seems like a task that is intended for the computer to calculate for you. Just like with all the other calculations that the computer does while running the game.
My kinda silly example is that if the game for some reason now and then tasked the player to do graphics rendering calculations manually, there would certainly still be some math fans out there who would like to solve these math problems, but the issue is that there is no actual decision being made by the player in that situation, because it would just be about working towards the one correct solution, and you kinda expect a strategy game to be about making decisions, not solving math puzzle minigames, so it makes sense for your GPU to do these calculations for you. And just because the computer is doing this for you, it still doesn't mean that the game would be playing itself. No one would ever think that a game is playing itself, just because the player doesn't have to somehow manually render the graphics or do whatever other calculations. That is exactly how I feel about automating the logistics delivery to assets, etc.

... and leaving the original system in there creates even more confusion: why bother with the traffic light system when it's more efficient not to use it? Well, one argument might be that the original system was fun to use. Now if you want to keep up in a multiplayer game, everybody will be forced to the pull system, meaning that we're left with what is essentially an automated system (with some small tweaking).

Traffic signs still have a use. You use them to make the one decision that you used them for even in the old system. To decide into what directions your leftover logistics points should be sent, so that you can use them for strategic move and raising troops.

This is a rather unsatisfactory "fix" for an issue that didn't exist in the first place as far as I'm concerned. Very disappointing.

I really can't disagree more. I think it's a pretty much perfect fix for what used to be my only gripe with the game. I was quited stoked when I saw it.

People new to the game will judge it as it comes for sure, but I can't help feel this decision was made to pacify a rather loud minority of players who made some rather hyperbolic claims about the traffic management system as it was, and likely as a defence against the inevitable (and frankly unavoidable) stream of criticism from Steam users when the game hits that platform.

I mean, and I can't help, but feel that the people in favour of the traffic light system are the loud minority who make the hyperbolic claims. At least in my eyes, this is an objectively good addition to the game and saying that this somehow ruins the spirit of the game in some way sounds hyperbolic to me.

It's really too bad that the poll on Vic's blog didn't mention the logistics system, because I would have liked to see the voting percentage. I'm pretty sure that the traffic light system is the thing that I've seen the most complaints about, at least of the people who started playing the game.

[SSFSX17]

Pull system is how Advanced Tactics works. Therefore I am in favor of it.

[JWW]

I've never done traffic signs as a math puzzle. Yet it is indeed kind of a puzzle, but no more of a puzzle than figuring out the optimum odds on a multi unit attack when throwing in that one more unit lowers the odds from 8-1 to 4-1. I've either blocked all traffic where it obviously should be blocked, half (well 40 or 60%), or none. I manage generally just by eyeballing the color of the supply line in the bottlenecks overlay and adjusting from there by adding capacity and blocking or partially blocking highways to nowhere. No math involved. And I've managed to avoid disaster doing it that way. No calculator needed. It takes some care and time, but I find doing it to be fun and entertaining. If that level of complexity remains, I'm good with it. If I don't have to manage my logistics, however, that is a loss.

[Malevolence]

The logistic System is a gigantic mess

At the moment, 7950 hits and 341 replies. By far the most talked about and read thread in the forum.

In terms of that thread as the catalyst for these changes, the real question is did you get what you wanted?

[ramnblam]

Happy to hear about these changes and am about to start up a new game to see how they play. There is enough to manage in this game without the playing the traffic sign game every 2nd turn.

[cspringer1234]

Maybe changes like this to the logistics system will eventually allow the AI to actually use the logistics system. Anything that makes it so the major AI players don't have a road trailing after single unit of theirs would be nice. It's like the AI units have a tail, or a leash.

[KingHalford]

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

The current system, the feel of it, is the most realistic of any game I've ever played. And to me managing the logistical system is one of the more enjoyable parts of the game. I don't really care if someone tells me the math of it doesn't really add up right. I found in my first full game that I did not have to do the extensive turn by turn micromanagement that some claim, but I did have to look over the whole system every 3 turns or so when doing offensive operations. And it was fun, at least to me. A challenge. It just feels right, especially when engaged in an offensive and having to manage your extended logistical system. I am concerned about what the end result will be. I hope the final version will be good and that there will be difficulty options for those of us who like the complexity and chaos of the current system.

Exactly. I really liked the manual allocation of flow of supply. I'm pleased that in single player at least we'll be able to choose to turn the automation off and if that wasn't the case I'd be pretty pissed off about this change. This will most affect multiplayer games I think.

There seemed to be three main arguments for changing the logistics system.

1. The claim that traffic light management was busywork, and that it required excessive micromanagement.

Changing a few traffic lights from time to time wasn't any effort, and I reject the claim that you had to do that on a turn by turn basis since nobody was ever able to provide any evidence that this was in any way necessary or that anybody was actually doing it. It takes a few seconds to set a traffic light: even if you had to do ten, that's about thirty seconds of your life. Consider how long it takes to move all your units during a large war. Thirty minutes? Maybe more?

I personally had moments where I had to remove and change a whole bunch of traffic lights at once, and I can see why some people might not enjoy having to do that, but that didn't happen more than a couple of times in the 150+ hours that I've been playing this game so I find it hard to believe this was such a big issue that it required a major rework. Usually you're adding one or two here and there, and occasionally altering a couple as assets are built or your forces expand in different directions. I think this is the weakest reason for altering the existing system as it stands.


2. The claim that the game is already very complex and logistics is one of the worst offenders for opacity in the mechanics.

Completely agree here.

The pull system automation certainly reduces the initial complexity for the player by them now not having to think about it at all.

In doing so we're removing a part of the game that some people seemed to enjoy. The trade off is that at least in multiplayer we're now either having to set house rules to not use the pull system, or we're all going to use the pull system because it'll be more efficient. I don't like any change that reduces the features of a game after release and this is looking like one of those situations.

The second trade off is that we not only have a traffic light system (already complex) but a whole new pull system with its own buttons and settings. We've now doubled the complexity of the system for people who actually want to interact with logistics.

Verdict: for reducing over-all complexity this is an epic fail. For people who don't want to interact with logistics beyond building roads and a few structures, then it's certainly more simple, but only after you've actually gone through the trouble of learning the two systems.

3. More casual players will not accept the logistics system as it stands, certainly an issue with the impending Steam release.

There's nothing that can be done about this because Steam has a high proportion of people who will complain about absolutely everything anyway. I actually think this was a reasonable reason for changing the logistics system as it stood, and I think that automating it this way will certainly help new players but are they getting the best experience from it? So this might well help game sales, but I feel the game has been dumbed down in the process.

4. The AI's messy road systems required a lot of traffic light management to fix.

Yes it did. That's no longer a problem because the player can now remove roads.

@Destragon saying this is like making the player do graphics rendering calculations is utter nonsense. By the same argument why bother with manual placement of your troops when you're mainly just clicking buttons until the military does what it's supposed to be doing? You make some good arguments for this pull system but that's not one of them and I know you've over-stated this to make a point but I don't think the point is very well thought through.

The decision making in logistics ensured that if you didn't take care of it, you'd have some issues later down the line. By being more careful about how you built your logistics buildings and roads you were rewarded by being able to push your empire's growth further. Yes, it encouraged micromanagement where other areas of the game discourage it, and I absolutely agree that was a problem in the game design. I recommended some kind of cost to traffic light management, as with the Organisation funding levels, to discourage that, although I accept that wasn't a very elegant solution it's certainly a better one than hot-wiring the whole thing to encourage players to bypass it entirely.

We're now returning to the situation where Vic's presented yet another rather deep and complex system that the player can only partly see and interact with, and is now almost entirely discouraged from interacting with at all, and I raise an eyebrow at that decision because it's a rather clumsy game design choice.

I still think this is one of the best games that I've ever played, and even if the pull system completely replaced the old one (and considering point 3 I think there is a strong argument for that now) I won't change my mind on that, but I can't help but think this is a rather rash reaction to an issue that wasn't really fully investigated in the first place. I'm in full agreement that the system wasn't perfect, and maybe the game will be better with a more automated system, but I liked it as it was because it felt fun to be in control of something you don't normally have any control over, and I know I'm not the only one.

[Munashe]

I'm just going to post to say that I support the change. The way you had to fiddle with the traffic signs or supply would go all over your road network, or the way things could be ruined by a private asset splitting off half your points was one of the friction points I encountered when trying to introduce the game to my friends. The previous lack of functionality was odd, because it's something that doesn't really contain any decisions. An easily solved problem that doesn't have a reason to be put on the player. Placing troops is completely different, in that there's a huge number of options, and the player has to make meaningful choices. Even though it didn't bother me much, you still couldn't even get things perfect with the resolution of percentage blockers in the traffic options. It's clear to me that the game should have been like this from the start. The new pull system is much better.

[eddyvegas]

A pull system eh? Well, I'm gonna have to try it so I can tell everybody how wrong they are! [:D]

But seriously, folks, Any new rule that keeps me away from that sucky Traffic Light UI is fine with me. [Click 60%, DON'T CLICK ON DELETE ALL SIGNS, (why can't I see all road changes immediately? well I guess I have to) back out, (to see those changes) oh that's way too much, click hex again, try 90%, carefully back out, oh that's too little, click hex......]

[Malevolence]

Started a new game and have been using the new system.

I wasn't in love with the old system. I like logistics being important and requiring management.

I didn't think the original traffic light system was a great system.

That said, I find the 1.04b2 logistics changes uninspired and pedestrian. They are dull.

Changes made management simpler and you can focus on just pushing wargame counters now, but it's unfortunate the change didn't add anything to the gameplay.

If you have the mind of technician, I suppose that's what you wanted. Better switches. I think you got better switches.

That said, as a strategy-focused player, I have no new strategies to develop for victory. No new strengths or weaknesses to exploit or to counter. There are no new dimensions to the game.

I think it could have been great, but instead it was uninspired.

[Malevolence]

I also wonder if a new player--who has never seen this game before--sees logistics and its play as simple and transparent now.

I would guess a new player would be more confused by the options, not less confused.

[josefrees]

If it’s going to be automated there should be a leader skill for it