Why should I buy WiTE2?

[sillyflower]

I bought Wite the day it came out and am still playing now, admittedly after a break of 3 years or so.

What really annoys me about wite:

1 Exploiting every loophole in the supply system in completely ahistorical ways, and spamming HQBU in 1st summer to get absurd rates of advance.

2 Players who use every trick to do ridiculous advances in 1st turn,such as flying in sec regts to secure pockets, to destroy up to 7K soviet a/c and to destroy and pocket ridiculous numbers of troops in a practice-made-perfect T1.

In fairness, re the above, I don't hate or blame the players but the game system that allows this. I just won't play such people

3.Ants in defence do better than bigger units in terms of smaller losses, as opposed to being completely overrun as they would be in real life or in any other game. This has been a problem with GG east front games even before Wite.

I tried WiTW soon after it came out, but gave up very quickly:
1. Too much faffing with the airforce, and AI control seemed: 'ineffective' is a polite word for it.
2. My role as CinC is not to shuffle supply dumps around - though I realise that I'm rather hard to please given my criticism of WiTE supply system.

I've read Bobo's AAR, for which I am grateful to him, and the T1 has been massively improved. On the other hand, the idea of individual pilots made me despair. Not my job in spades and I don't want to play a game that disadvantages me because I don't want to spend time on such trivia.

Why would I be wrong (or right) not to get WiTE2

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

I bought Wite the day it came out and am still playing now, admittedly after a break off 3 years or so.

What really annoys me about wite:

1 Exploiting every loophole in the supply system in copletely a historical ways, and spamming HQBU in 1st summer to get absurd rates of advance.

2 Players who use every trick to do ridiculous advances in 1st turn,such as flying in sec regts to secure pockets, to destroy up to 7K soviet a/c and to destroy and pocket ridiculous numbers of troops in a practice-made-perfect T1.

In fairness, re the above, I don't hate or blame the players but the game system that allows this. I just won't play such people

3.Ants in defence do better than bigger units in terms of smaller losses, as opposed to being completely overrun as they would be in real life or in any other game. This has been a problem with GG east front games even before Wite.

I tried WiTW soon after it came out, but gave up very quickly:
1. Too much faffing with the airforce, and AI control seemed: 'ineffective' is a polite word for it.
2. My role as CinC is not to shuffle supply dumps around - though I realise that I'm rather hard to please given my criticism of WiTE supply system.

I've read Bobo's AAR, for which I am grateful to him, and the T1 has been massively improved. On the other hand, the idea of individual pilots made me despair. Not my job in spades and I don't want to play a game that disadvantages me because I don't want to spend time on such trivia.

Why would I be wrong (or right) not to get WiTE2

some of the above is very hard to even see how those exploits exist within WiTE2. The issue in #1 is there were a lot of binary systems that players could exploit. #2 is based more around linear systems and feedback loops. So Bobo's AAR shows what a very good axis player can do, in WITE1 the sort of gains would indicate game over, what is happening if those feedback loops are coming into play.


Now clearly on release, there will be unexpected exploits, the player base will expand from 15-20 to hopefully a lot. But one guess, a lot of what will be declared 'exploits' actually will be players trying to carry on as if the game is #1, or missing that there is a perfectly valid response. So far from the testing group, there is no consensus over T1 (& some of us have played it more times than you want to [8D]). You can do a Lvov pocket (of sorts), but its actually not a bright idea, The current openings are incremental reworking of the historical German plans.

One simple issue, I looked at some current WiTE1 AARs when reviewing the section of the manual that covers the differences 1-2. To find that its still the case that Pzr divisions can be routed out of a pocket, or retreat through multiple hexes and suffer next to no losses is ... well depressing (since that was something that slipped in post .08.xx).

Other big bit, in #1 the only route to cull the Red Army is pockets, in #2 sustained combat can do a similar job for you. That changes the post-43 dynamics as well. We both remember Pelton's straight lines and 'hexes to Berlin' model of German play - do that in #2 and you will be in deep difficulties.

Finally, you don't manage individual pilots. The game tracks air group efficiency as in morale/exp at the pilot level but you never do anything with them. It just allows the game to track the impact of losses/replacements/how competent your training programme is. I've been testing #2 for 5 years, I have never allocated a pilot yet.

Oh, ... sorry not so final [;)]


The AI-assist in #2 is much better for the air war than in WiTW. You basically hook your airforce up to ground commands and it does a decent job in its usage and deployment. Apart from reviewing these relationships every now and then, you play #2 and never take any more account of the air war, just press F12 twice a turn.

[821Bobo]

Regarding pilots, when flying a lot, you are usually in shortage of them but engine allocates them automatically to groups in need. However if you want be sure that those spare trained pilots will go to fighter group and not, lets say recon, you can do that one click and assign them manually(en masse, not one by one). But that's all interacting you will have with pilots. Nothing like WitPAE where you manually assign thousands of pilots through the game.

[Hanny]

To expand on individual pilots, a unit has a number value, it’s generated from the constituent parts, in this case pilots, when the unit number goes up from training combat etc, it also can go down from replacements coming in at a lower number value, so the game engine needs to track individual pilots to give you the number value, you as a player need only look at the end number value., how it gets there and worrying about is for true nerds!

Example In winter in service numbers drop to around 20% and sortie rates plummet. Planes Need not be broken, but the weathers effects make flying landing a truly life or death event and experienced pilots stayed down. Typicaly Germany lost 41 to to 44, 44% of its pilots from non combat incidents, like trying to fly in bad weather and land on frozen ground, or just being a newly minted pilot and flying 2000 KLM’s to the front, in a combat plane using an octane level you did not train with, giving the plane different flight properties, particularly in banking, and you throttle up and instead of staying level as you turn, you stall instead, the Russians got the rest. US had the same problem in 43 in the USA, with nor a foe in sight, 2264 pilots, and 3339 crew Kia from training accidents.

If your unsure about an early purchase,then wait and look at let’s plays, read reviews at release and so on as they become available.

[sillyflower]

Thank you all, and particular Loki, assuming that the Prince of Mischief is to be trusted, which has to be a big 'if'

I remember the early days of #1 well. It was almost impossible to get very far with a game before a large and incompatible patch was issued necessitating a restart. The first 6 months after launch of #2 will be nearer to a public beta than anything else, but I don't criticise the devs for that because it takes that much playing to highlight problems. The essential thing is excellent dev support after launch, and I have every confidence that will happen.

Perhaps I should have added the 'surrounded pz xx routs out with minimal losses' issue to my list above, but at least that was relatively infrequent.

[sillyflower]

I am reassured by GloriousRuse's AAR that the problem of defending ants receiving ridiculously low casualties has at least been significantly improved, looking at the losses sustained by lone G regts

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

I am reassured by GloriousRuse's AAR that the problem of defending ants receiving ridiculously low casualties has at least been significantly improved, looking at the losses sustained by lone G regts

have you spotted that setting up and carrying out para operations is very easy. F9/1 click to set up, F9/1 click to execute (given your current WiTE1 thread)


but to the point, defend with regiments/brigades and expect to get hammered if they are attacked in force. There are sectors such as the Valdai where that is a reasonable gamble but given the new MP costs and rules no-one sentient is going to plan anything but an attritional offensive on that sector.

[Farfarer61]

I had never heard of the SEC Regt paradrop tactic and I thought I had seen everything! I gave up ever attempting paradrops as Ger or Rus almost immediately and never looked back.

My evil game the WITE1 techniques were limited to NOT attacking the Red AF on T1 and starving western Russia to death so population never returned/regrew.

[sillyflower]

My understanding from my opponent who had done this is that they were transferred into blocking positions. I thought only para were eligible to drop - not that I could ever get that to work either.................

@ loki - hooray for a system that actually works when you follow the instructions.

I have now pre-ordered the game

[GloriousRuse]

Short of somehow refighting the Second World War, there will always be some incongruities, algorithm slippage, and honest-model-attempt-broken-with-dishonest-use. What I can say is that a lot of beta effort has gone into reducing those and the overall kabuki-dance feel of WitE1 where the way to win the game was to break history as hard as you could by embracing every single trick of the game that produced the most ahistorical results. Are there still times when you might wonder if a panzer could have gone exactly that far, a rail bridge built exactly that quickly, exactly that much tonnage be delivered, or if the reserves would have arrived in exactly that order, or if the combat would have ended at 376 yards, or if those units really should have evacuated the port rather than retreat adjacent? Of course. It is at the end of the day a game.

But there are a whole lot less of them. Supply is much more of an issue for the Germans, particularly in ‘41. Fighting wears units out. Losing big kills the crap out of things. Both sides die in historically appropriate quantities. Offensives run down until they can breath again. Air support has been reined in and you can’t do the thousand click air raid. The list goes on.

There is still some base WitX left in the game, but there’s a whole lot WitE1 vets won’t recognize.

[ranknfile]

ORIGINAL: GloriousRuse

... a lot of beta effort has gone into reducing those and the overall kabuki-dance feel of WitE1 where the way to win the game was to break history as hard as you could by embracing every single trick of the game that produced the most ahistorical results. ...

That is good to hear.

I have been playing hex-based war games since the 70s (board games at that time of course), and this one has captivated me - as no other ever has - with its authenticity, its attention to detail (which includes eliminating - as much as possible - ahistorical "gamey" aspects).

[Templer_12]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Why should I buy WiTE2?

Because you are no longer interested in food, drink, personal hygiene and social contacts ...
Hopefully you don't have any pets. [:(]

[Rosseau]

The OP's question is a valid one, and one I have been considering, having bought the original on release night and then all the DLC at full price, of course.

I see no mention of "improvements" to the game editor, although I may have missed that. Plus, the original editor was/is pretty great to begin with.

Also, must take into consideration the awesome work devoted to patching the game over the years, and the huge effort at documenting all the changes via manual updates.

So, the short-take for me is that unless you are a bona-fide WitE grognard - or do not own the original (and that's a sure case for buying the new one), I don't see myself spending the $80 on release when I haven't wrapped my head around the old one yet!

Best reason may be to support the devs, and that may be my rationale for buying it.

Best wishes to all!

[ast95]

This game in unique. Not even rare, not even best of sort. Uniqe. Yes, it is not perfect. Maybe a bit gamy. Maybe a bit ahistorical. Some mechanics just annoyning. Ok, but nobody if perfect, right? Some flawes, yes, but it is just unique.

So MY main reason to buy game was to support developers so they do not stop their work, and maybe even show improvements in future. We guys are of rare kind, if we not give them some money, they just close the shop.

And yes, WITE2 already shown MUCH improvements comparing WITE for me. The are only two minor things, that I still hate: scripted arrivals, upgrades and disbandments whithout any reason, considering current situation on the board, and complete impossibility to edit TOE templates mannualy. Such restrictions are unreasonal for me. But that's no more than spots on the sun.

[rob89]

ORIGINAL: ast95

The are only two minor things, that I still hate: scripted arrivals, upgrades and disbandments whithout any reason, considering current situation on the board, and complete impossibility to edit TOE templates mannualy. Such restrictions are unreasonal for me.

+1

[jnpoint]

ORIGINAL: rob89

ORIGINAL: ast95

The are only two minor things, that I still hate: scripted arrivals, upgrades and disbandments whithout any reason, considering current situation on the board, and complete impossibility to edit TOE templates mannualy. Such restrictions are unreasonal for me.

+1

I would like that too.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: ast95
And yes, WITE2 already shown MUCH improvements comparing WITE for me. The are only two minor things, that I still hate: scripted arrivals, upgrades and disbandments whithout any reason, considering current situation on the board, and complete impossibility to edit TOE templates mannualy. Such restrictions are unreasonal for me. But that's no more than spots on the sun.

What leads you to believe the arrivals, upgrades and disbanding are without any reason? I know the team put a lot of effort into balancing history and keeping player flexibility on this given the theater boxes, to the point of allowing transfers to be cancelled by the player as desired as well.

Editing TO&E templates manually is a whole different ballgame IMHO.

[ast95]

Erik Rutins

Yes, thanks for TB<=>TB can be cancelled. But why I even shoud do so? If it is player's responsibility to maintain proper forces in TB, or take some risk and bleed it out? Maybe more logical could be to let player deside completly when to move divisions? Scripted relocations looks like junk. FOR ME.

Editing TO&E templates manually (in some reasonable range) could give more space to brilliant ideas and epic fails. More freedom. In WITE1 most games run one scenario whit cosmetic differences. It is too early to judge WITE2 that way, but that mechanic could add some pepper for sure.

[Erik Rutins]

Well, you're a theater commander and higher command has their own ideas too. As far as I know all transfers/disbands that were "hard-wired" based on events in the East were removed and with the enhanced Theater Box control, you can adjust the rest as desired within reasonable limits.