Can't assign artillery support units out of SHAEF

[Bobbybat]

Hi all.

Got a spot of COVID iso happening so thought I'd pick up WITW after about 18 months of not playing. Questions abound for stuff I've forgotten and/or never really understood in the first place, but one perplexing one at the moment is that, while playing Breakout I can see all these heavy artillery units sitting up in SHAEF but if I go into a subsidiary unit such as 12th US Army Group and click on 'Assign Support Units' to try and get at them, I don't see them listed. Is this because SHAEF in England while 12 AGRP is in France, or another reason?

Is so (or if not for that matter - in which case, what is the likely problem?), then how do I get them "out" from under SHAEF and where do I put them so I can see them from my Army Group/Army level?

Thanks.

[cfulbright]

Bobbycat - I haven't played it in many months either, but I think the issue is as you said; that SHAEF is in England and your other HQ's are in France. You CAN transfer them from SHAEF by clicking on the SHAEF HQ icon and doing it from there one-by-one. You just can't draw them into the subordinate HQ's via those icons.

Does that make sense?

Cary

[Bobbybat]

Yep that does make sense...I have just been playing around and I think stumbled upon your suggestion - going the other way looks like it does work, just a little more painstaking And I just found that bit on the manual (on like page 255 or something) that says you can do it that way. No mention anywhere of the UK/France/Channel in the way distinction anywhere, but its a big a game and a big enough manual already, so we we won't complain!

While I have you, can you (sorry to use and abuse ) answer a couple other questions?

Please remind me of the rules as to when artillery support units attached to a HHQ in the combat unit's chain of command will get (subject to relevant die rolls)...I think I vaguely recall that while other support (like Engineers) comes into play as long as the unit is within 5 hexes of the HQ, but artillery can only be called if the HHQ is one hex away (i.e., adjacent to) the attacking unit - is that right? And the corollary is that only support units attached to an HHQ within that 5 hexes will be included, right? That is, Support units attached to an HHQ your attacker is under will NOT be considered for inclusion in a supporting role for that unit's combat?

Sub-question - if the above is all correct, then when you are attacking, is the 5 hex count the count between the HHQ and the attacking unit, or 5 hexes between the HHQ and the target hex?

Kinda related question: When looking at the Combat Resolution Window for a battle just completed, I see up in the top right part of the screen where it shows the Combat Value for (in this case me as the ATTACKER) little NATO icons for Artillery and Engineers when they have been called in as Support - at least I assume that's what they indicate - with a numeric value I guess representing the CV that branch supported to the overall CV in the attack. But why would an infantry symbol be shown as 'Support' in the combat? Does that indicate that somewhere in the chain of command some sort of Support Unit is infantry rather than armor, AT, engineer or arty? I didn't know there was such a thing as an INF Support Unit...

Cheers,
Bobby

[loki100]

first bit is 5 hexes to the attacking units (ie they must be in command range)

second bit, this shows when one (or more) of engineers, artillery, infantry reduced the enemy fort levels in the actual combat (& shows their contribution).

Now this can get obscured because if you win then the fort level is 0 (as you now control the hex) but if you failed then it would have been dropped from say 3-2 or similar

re Support Unit allocation, there has always been an odd situation where sometimes pull is easier than push, esp if cross-water traces are involved. Think the reason lurks deep in the game code as its the same issue across all the WiTx series

[Bobbybat]

Thanks Loki - really helpful additional info.

And for Artillery Support, can this come from up to 5 hexes away as well, or does the Corps (or other HHQ) have to be immediately adjacent to the stack it is supporting?

In Breakout and Pursuit I am playing Allies and have managed to punch back the initial Axis stack I attacked but the AI has shifted forces and I now am facing a ring of PZ division heavy stacks that I just can't seem to bring enough CV to bear on to get my odds up. I have shifted my own forces to try and get divs from the same Corps in the same hex and adjacent to one another, and have a mix of Armor and Inf divisions where the US Corps especially have them together. But even with all the direct attached Combat Engineer and Tank Battalion support units, and HHQ's within range throwing more remote support at the attack, and attacking from multiple hexes in the one combat, my starting CV that looks like overwhelming force gets chopped down to be less a 2:1 advantage every time, and sometimes to almost 1:1, so the opposition holds and I take some decent casualties/equipment losses.

I think I have asked this before but there is no way of seeing HOW the game computed the actual/final CV's in a Combat Result, right? I'd just like to learn from seeing where I'm losing so much advantage. And I've tried both GS and GA/Unit and Interdiction AD's at the area and specific target hex.

I know the game is so detailed that it could be coming from lots of places, but I've tried to limit obvious ones like weather (clear vs rain), if there is light mud, its bocage/polder territory so I can't do much about that (as was the case in real life) but will all the Engineers involved I would have thought that, as well as the level 1 fort that they get just by being in the hex it seems, would have been mitigated. I just read that I may be losing some % by having too many units in the attack, but how else can you get enough raw CV into it to make a dent? Its a tad frustrating....

[Zovs]

In all WITx games it within 5 hexes not adjacent.

[Zovs]

As far as your other concerns you can always play with fow off and raise the message level to get a glimpse into things, to help learn.

[Bobbybat]

Thanks Zovs!

[loki100]

unpicking the combat system is complex.

Some ideas. What you see at start is an estimate, each element is given a notional value and these are added up. This is a bit broad brush so a medium tank=a medium tank, in 1944 perhaps not that important but as an eg a Czech P38=same value as Soviet T34. An element only counts if its not disrupted.

This raw number is then modified by ammo/supply/trucks/fatigue and more fixed stuff like terrain and fortifications

Now there are a few times when the raw cv is very misleading. For a start numbers matter, so if you hit a brigade with 3 divisions you have a good chance regardless of the apparent variables. Equally low morale/exp units will drop rapidly in sustained combat (again not really a June 44 issue but can come back into play later into the war)

Now the key bit is undisrupted elements and the variables around supply and fatigue. Crudely you want this to hit the enemy and favour you - and as the Allies in 1944 you have a lot of tools.

An interdiction mission chops up the German supply lines - and they not only gain supply in the logistics phase, they may well need to do so during a battle. It also makes a mess of reserve reaction formations and anything that retreats.

So if you have the assets, air interdiction over the target hex starts the process of pushing the defender out

Now the second pre-combat air mission is ground attack-unit. This is a good one for level bombers, with big bombs (like what the Allies did). What it does is maybe damage a few elements (so they can't fight later) and will disrupt quite a lot. They recover but now have extra fatigue - and as above, fatigue comes off combat value. They've also used up some ammo as AA, remember that interdiction mission you ran, well that is now going to be disrupting resupply and maybe blow up a few trucks.

Combat, well ground support (this is why the Allies are so reliant on airpower) is vital. This does the usual mostly disrupt, some damage/destroy. This time the disrupted elements are set aside, they both don't count for the end battle calculations and can't fire at your attacking elements.

The rest then goes by range, so lots of heavy guns (those naval guns if its a coastal hex) disrupt/damage - again those elements are not going to fight again. Also lots of guns and combat engineers will destroy fortifications.


edit - also if you damage the fort then that is a lot off the final cv comparison

So its all about the set up and stacking every variable on your side. From your pov, don't attack with high fatigue/missing trucks/low supply formations.

You might still fail the first time but now the German defenders are a mess. Their disrupted elements recover but get fatigued. If you can, rotate out the initial attackers and bring in fresh. Even if you can't those German units now need a rest, and they can't be released from the front line. So next turn, repeat, sooner or later they crumble.

The reality of summer 44 (in Breakout or the campaign) is the Allies have to take their losses. They are not set up for this, organisationally or attidinally (hence the lost VP) but constantly mixing air and ground, interdiction for that secondary niggle and the German line will break - and when it goes, it goes spectacularly.

In effect, an attack that fails, maybe even badly, may well be the one that opens the door to Paris and beyond.

[Zovs]

Excellent write up Roger!

Thanks

[Bobbybat]

Great stuff!

[Zovs]

I am no expert in WITW, but I am pretty experienced with WITE2.

In the Breakout scenario I managed to clear out 5 hexes so far on turn 1.

First Deliberate Attack (DA).


Some details of that DA.


Second DA.


End of turn DA's.


Ground Losses.


Air Losses.


Lets see what the AI does.

[Zovs]

Sorry for hijacking your thread, here is the end of turn two in Breakout and Pursuit.

Battles for turn 2.


End of turn 2 positions.


Total ground losses.


Total air losses.

[Zovs]

Okay during turn 2 the Germans counterattacked, biggest tank battle I have seen yet.



If you'd like I can stop posting and hijacking your thread.

Direct link to the image.
https://i.imgur.com/BxVlNAV.png

[Zovs]

So its the end of turn 4 (four weeks of combat) and here are my final turs positions.

You can see that I have encircled 2 German Infantry Divisions, 1 Infantry Regiment, 1 Panzer Division (Lehr) and the 2nd SS Panzer Division.



Full link.
https://i.imgur.com/OE6T0yC.png

[cfulbright]

That SS panzer division may not be encircled because it's in a port. If you put a naval TF not next to the port but one more hex away, that will cut off naval supply.

Cary

[Zovs]

Great point, it’s showing the hex is isolated when I hover over, I do have 2 NP and one is covering that area.

[Zovs]

Since no one is complaining, I'll hijack one more time.

Its now 8 weeks in, historically I am way behind schedule and probably have been too cautious but I have opened up the front now with 4 weeks to go.



Losses thus far.

[Bobbybat]

I've been away from the PC for a week or so, but these are great posts! Feel free to hijack further

Did you do the sort of things Loki talked about with regards to disrupting the Axis stack in target hex specifically, during the air phase, and that disruption led to you being able to get a 3:1 or more ratio with those turn 1 and 2 DA's?

I expect that once you 'broke out' by turn 4 the Germans, like Apollo Creed in the 15hth round of Rocky, just couldn't breathe and hence defeat just followed defeat for them?