How do you set up a target for Long Range Cap?

[marshalldavout]

A bit of a dumb question here guys, but how do you set a target hex/task force for a Long Range CAP Mission? I want to to protect Task forces at sea. All I can see is that you can only set targets for the Primary Missions. How do you do it specifically for LRCAP? There is seems to be no toggle for it, only the percent setting.

I saw another post/screenshot where the chosen Primary Mission to select a target is "Escort." Is that how is it done? Use escort primary mission to do Long Range CAP?

What if I want to do Long Range CAP and also do an actual Escort Mission on a different target than the ones I want protected by Long Range CAP?

Thanks for any help.

[Trugrit]

A bit of a dumb question here guys, but how do you set a target hex/task force for a Long Range CAP Mission? I want to to protect Task forces at sea. All I can see is that you can only set targets for the Primary Missions. How do you do it specifically for LRCAP? There is seems to be no toggle for it, only the percent setting.

I saw another post/screenshot where the chosen Primary Mission to select a target is "Escort." Is that how is it done? Use escort primary mission to do Long Range CAP?

What if I want to do Long Range CAP and also do an actual Escort Mission on a different target than the ones I want protected by Long Range CAP?

Thanks for any help.

Not a dumb question.

Long Range Cap is a Patrol Level.
It can be set with any Group mission except Training and Standdown.

To LR Cap an individual Task force you select it as a target.
Mouse over the Task Force and select it.

As below.

The Group from Guam below is set to 100% LR Cap. Range 2 to Target.
(I typically only set Range to one Hex)

If it was not set to 100% but 50% it would look for a target to
ground attack with 50% of the group.

Why don’t you go into the game a give it a try.

There is more tactical strategy to this, so search the forum for tips
from players on how to use this to better effect.

TF 1.jpg (246.39 KiB) Viewed 1060 times

[Leandros]

Am I correct in assuming that only 1/3 of the assigned percentage shall actually patrol over the "target - mission area" at any time? In other words, in your example, 1/6 of the unit in question.

Fred

[Leandros]

Another interresting "quirk" when we're at it - does the "range" figure indicate the area covered over the "target"...? Or is this fixed enirely on the target's hex?

Fred

[Trugrit]

Target Hex

It is in the Manual.
And the New Manual.

I did not go to the New Manual because the OP was asking about how to cover his Task Forces.

This issue is complex and I have not figured out all the new changes.
I'm waiting for the new beta to go to final before I take a look.

As you can see below....LRCAP is not shown above CAP that I can see yet.

New Manual.jpg (268.09 KiB) Viewed 1039 times

[Trugrit]

Leandros and Marshalldavout,

Here is a dumb question for both of you:

In my first post above (screenshot TF 1) the range of the covering
Fighter group is set to 8 hexes. TF 1 is well within that range.

If the fighter group range was set to 0 Hex would it still Cap TF 1?

And…..How would you find out the answer to that question?

Please get back to me and let me know.

Thanks

[marshalldavout]

A bit of a dumb question here guys, but how do you set a target hex/task force for a Long Range CAP Mission? I want to to protect Task forces at sea. All I can see is that you can only set targets for the Primary Missions. How do you do it specifically for LRCAP? There is seems to be no toggle for it, only the percent setting.

I saw another post/screenshot where the chosen Primary Mission to select a target is "Escort." Is that how is it done? Use escort primary mission to do Long Range CAP?

What if I want to do Long Range CAP and also do an actual Escort Mission on a different target than the ones I want protected by Long Range CAP?

Thanks for any help.

Not a dumb question.

Long Range Cap is a Patrol Level.
It can be set with any Group mission except Training and Standdown.

To LR Cap an individual Task force you select it as a target.
Mouse over the Task Force and select it.

As below.

The Group from Guam below is set to 100% LR Cap. Range 2 to Target.
(I typically only set Range to one Hex)

If it was not set to 100% but 50% it would look for a target to
ground attack with 50% of the group.

Why don’t you go into the game a give it a try.

There is more tactical strategy to this, so search the forum for tips
from players on how to use this to better effect.


TF 1.jpg

Okay. Thanks Trugrit, I understand it better now.

I got an extended question.

In your example screenshot, the group mission was set to ground attack, but what if as you said I want the other 50 percent to actually do a ground attack mission, is it possible to select another target for it besides the target for the LR Cap?

[marshalldavout]

Leandros and Marshalldavout,

Here is a dumb question for both of you:

In my first post above (screenshot TF 1) the range of the covering
Fighter group is set to 8 hexes. TF 1 is well within that range.

If the fighter group range was set to 0 Hex would it still Cap TF 1?

And…..How would you find out the answer to that question?

Please get back to me and let me know.

Thanks

I don't think it will. As the Range setting will override the LR Cap order?

I found also in the thread below, that you can only LR Cap within normal radius and without drop tanks.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7#p2469487

[Trugrit]

Leandros and Marshalldavout,

Here is a dumb question for both of you:

In my first post above (screenshot TF 1) the range of the covering
Fighter group is set to 8 hexes. TF 1 is well within that range.

If the fighter group range was set to 0 Hex would it still Cap TF 1?

And…..How would you find out the answer to that question?

Please get back to me and let me know.

Thanks

I don't think it will. As the Range setting will override the LR Cap order?

I found also in the thread below, that you can only LR Cap within normal radius and without drop tanks.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7#p2469487

Maybe true in 2010 but not true now.

The LRCAP will override the set group range.
You can LRcap and Cap with drop tanks fitted.

Also, If you set LRcap on a task force that is outside the fighter groups normal range
the group will automatically fit drop tanks if they are able to for increase in it's range.

[Leandros]

Thanks, Trugrit - just to round it off and as I cannot see it specifically mentioned here - LR CAPs can, if I remember correctly, be flown over enemy bases, if not over enemy TFs?

Fred

[Trugrit]

Thanks, Trugrit - just to round it off and as I cannot see it specifically mentioned here - LR CAPs can, if I remember correctly, be flown over enemy bases, if not over enemy TFs?

Fred

As I recall it can be done but it is a useless tactic.

You can even set long range cap over an enemy task force.
As I remember that works a little better if you run an air
strike in but it is still not an efficient way to do business.

Cap to Cap won’t fight. Long range Cap to Cap won’t fight.

If you run an air strike in on a base the fighters will show up late,
they won’t coordinate with the bombers. Escort is a much better option.

I don’t even think it will attack air supply transport.

I have not looked at that in a while.
You want me to show you how to set up a test run?

[Leandros]

I don’t even think it will attack air supply transport.

I believe you are right. Actually, this is the example I was aiming at and which I feel is a serious flaw in the game. I have on occasions tried to fly LR CAPs where it is obvious that the Japanese are reinforcing/resupplying bases using large numbers of "Emilys" but nothing happens as far as I can see.

Fred

[Trugrit]

I don’t even think it will attack air supply transport.

I believe you are right. Actually, this is the example I was aiming at and which I feel is a serious flaw in the game. I have on occasions tried to fly LR CAPs where it is obvious that the Japanese are reinforcing/resupplying bases using large numbers of "Emilys" but nothing happens as far as I can see.

Fred

It is not a serious flaw in the game. There is no guarantee that whatever tactic
you want to try….crazy or not is going to work…. just because you think it should.

There is nothing in the manual or game documentation that says you can
successfully Cap an enemy base.

[JanSako]

So how do you intercept enemy transports over their base? I know it can be done, my Cats found out the hard way over Singapore, most recently .

I always thought it was a function of how many planes on LR CAP vs dice rolls but happy to be educated!

Also, it is possible to have an airgroup on an LR CAP high up over an enemy base while other groups escort the strikes. There is a chance the high LRCAP will be out of position, but if they are not, they can get the diving bonus on the enemy CAP which definitely helps. Just remember that it is a chance, albeit useful when playing with HR preventing strato sweeps. No rule against strato CAP, yet.

[CaptBeefheart]

I think I've seen in AARs where LRCAP against transports (i.e. above an enemy base) does work, but it doesn't show up in the combat report. It'll show up in the losses, though. Something to check.

Cheers,
CB

[Zeckke]

LRCAP is good for land bases.... if you want to protect Task forces with carriers, just follow the task forces with carriers set them 90% CAP, They will protect so also the carriers can launch attacks while protect task forces

LRCAP always the AI makes not good for carriers, i used always to put at range less than his maximum range CAP so they can strike, never put zeros maximum range they get tired

[Trugrit]

It is your game to play.

If you want to use LRcap in this way go ahead.
All I’m saying is that it does not, may not, work the way you think it does.

I ran some sandbox tests years ago and got contradictory results.
I don’t know if anything has changed since.

Help me out….. run some sandbox tests.
Sandbox tests are not a final answer because there are many
variables involved…..but they do give a general indication.

I always recommend that every player have a separate game install
For practice. This game requires experience through lots of practice.

For LRcap….Set it up this way:

Everything you need is shown in the screenshot below…..Around Hengchun and
Laoag...Clark, Manila, Takao etc…

Use either game version 26a or the 1127 New Beta.

Go into the game…...Head to Head…..pick the Scenario Downfall.
Start the Scenario….the first thing as Japanese is to stand down all the
air groups both Army and Navy in the entire theater.

This makes the combat replay run faster and you won’t have other
air groups interfering with your runs.

Then...

As Japanese:
At Hengchun there is a group of 36 Oscars.
Pick a group mission that will give you LRcap
(Set them on Ground Attack if you want)
Then set them to LRcap at 100% …..
Select the target….. Allied base (Hex) Laoag.
Altitude 10,000 ft.

Advance the turn.

As Allied:
The first thing as Allied is to stand down all the
air groups both Army and Navy in the entire theater.

Then….

At Laoag there is a group of 25 P-38L Lightnings
Pick a group mission and then set them to 100% Cap.
Altitude 10,000 ft. (or any other fighter group)

Only 1/3 of of the Cap should be in the air at any one time.

So theoretically you now have around 12 Japanese fighters
and 8 or 9 Allied fighters airborne, at the same altitude, over
the Allied base at Laoag.

Both should be flying cap over the base at the same time.

Run the turn and see what happens.

Then as the Allied player go to Clark Field and set all the
Level bombers to transport supplies to Laoag and see if
the Japanese LRcap attacks them.

Fill the sky over Laoag with level bombers transporting supplies
and see if the long range Japanese cap attacks them.

Watch the Japanese fighter group for Air to Air loss.

Then as the Japanese go to Takao and launch and airfield attack
against Laoag….just the bombers alone... and see if the Japanese
LRcap does anything to support them.

(After all the Japanese should have at least 12 fighters over the base)

As the Allies go down to Manila and form up some task forces.
Run them up the coast and LRcap them….attack them with the Japanese.
try some other combinations.

Let me know what you find out.

Cap.jpg (84.92 KiB) Viewed 825 times

[Chris21wen]

After reading this I did some checking on my LRCAP results. The observations were not clear so set up test and running three in the end. The combat reports for these test are attached. These produce some odd result which it turned was due to max range so carried out one further range test.

The two first tests were over Luzon 9 Dec 41 for 5 days.

For Japan
All based in Takao. These raids did not change in the first two tests
LAOAG(7) Sally 11K, Zero escort
APARRI(8) Betty 13K, Zero escort
TUGUEGAROO(9) Nell, 15K Zero escort

1st test for Allies
Allied LRCAP targets stayed the same but altitude changed between test runs.
24th PG/3rd PS with P-40E Warhawk (Iba 10K 100% LRCAP LAOAG(4))
24th PG/17th PS with P-40E Warhawk (Manilla 10K 100% LRCAP APARRI(5))
24th PG/20th PS with P-40B Tomahawk (Clark 10K 100% LRCAP TUGUEGAROO(4))
35th PG/21st PS with P-40E Warhawk (Manilla 10K 100% NO TARGET(4))
35th PG/34th PS with P-35A (Clark 10K 100% NO TARGET(7))

2nd test for Allies
Different LRCAP altitude changes (Same Height as raid + 5K)
24th PG/3rd PS with P-40E Warhawk (Iba 16K 100% LRCAP LAOAG(4))
24th PG/17th PS with P-40E Warhawk (Manilla 18K 100% LRCAP APARRI(5))
24th PG/20th PS with P-40B Tomahawk (Clark 20K 100% LRCAP TUGUEGAROO(4))
35th PG/21st PS with P-40E Warhawk (Manilla 15K 100% NO TARGET(4))
35th PG/34th PS with P-35A (Clark 15K 100% NO TARGET(7))


Observations

• The very first thing to note is for LRCAP to engege they need a TARGET. The two groups shown as NO TARGET never engaged.
  
  The number of a/c flying at any time over the target seems to depends on the range to the LRCAP target. I.e. In the first raid again Aparri(5) that was 1/3 of groups total serviceable a/c. In a raid against Cabanatuan(1) it was 20.
  
  In all raids no a/c were ever on stby and none scrambled.
  
  Groups will divert from they assigned target to protect a different target and usually in far greater numbers than for the group assign to protect it.

For instance in the very first turn of test one on Aparri, the group assigned to it intercepted with 6 a/c out of 20 but the group assign to LAOAG intercepted APARRI as well with all 20 it's serviceable a/c. THIS IS NOT A ONE OF. Looking at the combat results shows this. This leaves there assigned target unprotected.

Changes in altitude had no effect, range did.


3rd test for range.
Based in Takao
Japan raid on Cabanatuan
CABANATUAN(11) Betty 15K, Zero escort

Allied LRCAP targets with max ranges initial set to the distance between Cabanatuan and LRCAP target(#)
35th PG/34th PS with P-35A (Clark 10K 100% LRCAP CABANATUAN(0))
24th PG/3rd PS with P-40E Warhawk (Iba 10K 100% LRCAP LINGAYEN(1))
24th PG/20th PS with P-40B Tomahawk (Clark 10K 100% LRCAP SAN FERNANDO(2))
24th PG/17th PS with P-40E Warhawk (Manilla 10K 100% LRCAP VIGAN(3))
35th PG/21st PS with P-40E Warhawk (Manilla 10K 100% LRCAP LAOAG(4))

In the 3rd test all LRCAP groups except to the LAOAG group, could and did intercept. Once I reduced the range below distance between Cabanatuan and LRCAP target(#) they stopped intercepting.

I thought this range was linked to the normal range of the a/c but it's not as I could never get the LRCAP group covering LAOAG(4) to intercept the CABANATUAN raid. For this reason I think the maximum didtance a LRCAP group will intercept is 3 hexees. It seems the closer a LRCAP is to a raid target the more likely the group is to intercept but limited to 3 hexes (Same as the interception range of CAP. (Not a co-incidence I think?). Note the leader ratings may play an important part here but not tested it.

The max range setting is used but unlike CAP, where it's range from base, max range for LRCAP is range from LRCAP target hex!.

[Chris21wen]

Now to the intercepting transports. I don't think you can.

Carried out two tests 12 Dec 41 for 10 days.

First LRCAP over target for Japan transports. Three locations, two Japan held in Philippines and one British in Malaya not one single tranport lost other then the odd one to ops losses.

Second tried LRCAP over target, LRCAP adjacent bases, sweeps, CAP over friendly, bombing with escort over Japan bases all with same result. No losses other than ops.

I also monitored Ops reports and combat events for all turns and there was never any indication that an intercept was even attempted.

[RangerJoe]

The transport losses would show up as increased ops losses.