Shakturi Expansion Wishlist

[thegreybetween]

Greetings Friends,

Things have been pretty quiet on the DW2 front after all the lead-up to the latest faction DLC, so I thought it would be fun to open a thread to discuss the things we'd like to see in the upcoming Shakturi DLC. I assume that we should start seeing details in the next month or two (if they're still on pace for late 2023), but it never hurts to discuss our wishlists in the meantime!

Here's some things I'd like to see, to help get us started:

1) Expanded Diplomacy - Alliances
In the ancient galaxy, a massive threat appeared in the form of the Shakturi. Before long, the entire galaxy had divided into two major camps: The Shaktur Axis - composed largely of insectoid races in sync with the Shakturi, and the Galactic Alliance - essentially all of the remaining sentient life in the galaxy banded together to stop the end times.

In that spirit, I'd love to see diplomacy features expanded to allow actual ALLIANCES. And by that, I mean: Two (or more) empires that have met a certain threshold of relationship and mutual treaties could enter into an Alliance. Empires in an Alliance would be treated as a SINGLE ENTITY for certain game systems - One common border, completely open trading/resource sharing/migration/military logistics, would function as a single entity for diplomacy and research systems, and would be working for a SHARED VICTORY (both empires win or lose together). It feels really scummy to build up deep friendships with other empires only to watch everything crumble when only one empire can achieve victory. And when we're all supposed to be working together to save/conquer the universe in the wake of the Shakturi, it seems like a perfect time to introduce formal alliances.

Obviously, this would take some doing to balance everything and to sort out the victory thresholds. Each empire would still probably track its own race conditions, population, economy, etc and the impact on the victory threshold would be some sort of weighted average of their contributions or something. I haven't really done the legwork to present a solid proposal as to how best to implement things at this stage. I just wanted to mention it as a wishlist item and open it up for discussion to anyone interested in developing the idea further.

2) Other Diplomacy Improvements
It would also be really cool to have certain other diplomacy features, such as the ability to wage a beneficial "War of Liberation".

Example: I'm Teekan, and I have poor relations with my Quameno neighbors because they aren't interested in diplomacy. Soon, a nearby empire of Mortalen discover these Quameno and decide they are easy pickings, and begin a war with them. I'd love the ability to be able to declare a war on the Mortalen specifically for the casus belli of liberating the Quameno. In this way, the war would be considered justified by my people (improving the war weariness impact) and also allow me to improve my relations with the Quameno by essentially fighting their war for them. They focus on their precious research, but remember me (via improved relations though my war efforts on their behalf) the next time I ask them for a FTA.

Other diplomacy improvements that add to the flavor of relationships we can form in the galaxy would be very welcome!

3) Terrestrial space creatures (the return of the Sandworm)
I think this could add a lot of flavor to world events, and possibly give recruited troops more to do between invasion campaigns, further justifying their maintenance costs. Plus, as a diehard Teekan player, I'd love to see their victory condition mapped to actually hunting sandworms rather than Vordikars (which feels like a thematic placeholder)


Anyway, that's some stuff I'm wishing for. What do you hope to see with the next (or some future) expansion?

Cheers!

[Cauldyth]

Just chiming in that I would love to see expansion of the diplomacy system like this!

[Jorgen_CAB]

For diplomacy I really like to have the option of protection agreement with independents so you can defend them if someone tried to invade them. Either that you can send in defensive troops or even station troops there or stronger alliances that forces another empire to declare war with you if they want to invade.

There probably could be even more diplomatic options with independent worlds... even ways to help them become full empires.

I also think the game need to have more involved intra species relationships and issues. Currently there is no reason to just go multi species as there really are no real downsides too it only upsides. Different types of empires should need or want other species or at least particular ones more or less than others.

[thegreybetween]

For diplomacy I really like to have the option of protection agreement with independents so you can defend them if someone tried to invade them. Either that you can send in defensive troops or even station troops there or stronger alliances that forces another empire to declare war with you if they want to invade.

There probably could be even more diplomatic options with independent worlds... even ways to help them become full empires.

I also think the game need to have more involved intra species relationships and issues. Currently there is no reason to just go multi species as there really are no real downsides too it only upsides. Different types of empires should need or want other species or at least particular ones more or less than others.

All great points. It is actually pretty annoying in the current game to have a nearby independent that happens to be within the borders of a neighboring empire, because once you have great relations with the independent, the AI constantly wants you to colonize them (and suggests as much ad nauseum), but you can't unless you're willing to go to war with the other empire (who often doesn't even know about the independents). So if you're playing for peace, the only option is to just wait until that empire eventually finds and integrates them while we continually have to shush our advisors. So yeah, the ability to directly deal with independents and create a situation that will allow them to "repel" the opposing empire border enough for us to colonize them without a war would be awesome. And the other relationships you mention sound great, too.

Elevating independents into full-fledged empires would be awesome, and it doesn't seem like too big of a stretch for the system to support such an action.

I love the idea of issues and events related to different races in a single empire (especially if we get alliances). You're right that there is nothing but positive incentive to get as many races under your border as possible. But yeah, internal strife between factions (not unlike the tribal conflicts of the Gizureans but between different races within an empire) would add a lot of flavor and mid-game dynamism.

And it probably goes without saying, but things like alliances, independent elevation, etc, could easily be ON/OFF during game creation so that people uninterested in these systems could happily ignore them.

[fruitgnome]

Fix bugs/correct core concepts.

[thegreybetween]

Fix bugs/correct core concepts.

The simplest things are often also the toughest. More bug fixes and systemic overhauls are coming out with a regular cadence, and I have no doubt that this game will continue to improve far into the future. Keep up with the bug reports and feature requests, and I'm sure they will be addressed. Like the game itself, a little improved diplomacy (patience and understanding) will really elevate the whole experience for all involved.

[fruitgnome]

It would be so easy to add 1M in diplomacy. It is so annoying to buy colonies by 100K. And if add 1M so also add 10M any maybe 100M. But only show this values if you have so much money, but this is already so by the current values.

[fruitgnome]

Start from center and not edge would be great.

[tofudog]

Yes, diplomacy.


For a slew of great stuff to have, you only need to open todays paper and read the international section:

We can support one side in a war (with money or material) without really becoming a party in that war (reputation hits still apply though).
We can become allies or opponents over internal social issues.
We can be allies in one field of endeavor and rivals in another. Military allies, but economic rivals for example.

Don't even get me started on information and disinformation too.

[diji]

I love the ideas posted about alliances and liberation wars. In general, more diplomatic options would be nice. A lot of the time I find my only options are to sell some location data for credits.

I think I'd also enjoy an expansion of the private economy and tourism. I'm not sure what mechanics this would entail but I'd like for it to the private economy to be a real concern that I want to foster and protect even if I have no direct control over it. Perhaps the private economy could also build private facilities on planets that give various benefits if they have enough money, or perhaps there could be something along the lines of private orgs (corporations and so on) may be desirable (or even undesirable). But I think that would take a fair bit of work to flesh out and require looking at resource scarcity. And of course there should also be room for governments like dictatorships that aren't beholden to it.

Speaking of governments, I'd enjoy if there was more differentiation between government types, though implementing such things might be a big task worthy of an expansion all its own.

But I think in general I like most of the game mechanics, I just want some mechanics to be refined/improved in implementation. And perhaps someone to go through the mechanics in depth and expand their documentation, either in-game or in the manual.

[Jorgen_CAB]

In terms of economy I do think the game could need a two tier type resource system. That is you mine basic resources out in space and then you produce key resources and special luxury resources on planets. I think that this process should be govern mostly by the private sector and planet governments, but the player should have some influence over it.

I do think that tying population growth to the availability of key resources is a good thing, that would put a higher emphasis on basic resources as populations on planets grow and mining resources would become more important than what it currently is. Loss of luxury goods or construction material could even lead to planet rebelling and trying to get the resources they want themselves rather than share them with other planets in your empire for example.

It also would make wars between empires more dynamic if they were more about needed resources. In general I think that resources are too plentiful and the only thing you really need to look out for is luxury resources and even then that just feels so random anyway so you get what you get.

[diji]

In terms of economy I do think the game could need a two tier type resource system. That is you mine basic resources out in space and then you produce key resources and special luxury resources on planets. I think that this process should be govern mostly by the private sector and planet governments, but the player should have some influence over it.

I do think that tying population growth to the availability of key resources is a good thing, that would put a higher emphasis on basic resources as populations on planets grow and mining resources would become more important than what it currently is. Loss of luxury goods or construction material could even lead to planet rebelling and trying to get the resources they want themselves rather than share them with other planets in your empire for example.

It also would make wars between empires more dynamic if they were more about needed resources. In general I think that resources are too plentiful and the only thing you really need to look out for is luxury resources and even then that just feels so random anyway so you get what you get.

I like that idea for resources. And as you say, leading to more organic casus belli for war would be a good thing. Currently my reasons are generally either because the opposition has a high suitability planet and I want to expand my population, or I just want to see ships blow up for fun. On occasion, there have been games where I draw a bad hand and end up critically lacking some resource for higher end components but generally it's not an issue. Another thing that increased resource scarcity could do is potentially shape the design of fleets. If you lack the resources to produce high-end shields you may naturally tend building ships with more of the lower tech shields.

So there's potential for some interesting ripples in overall gameplay there. Like your example of a planet rebelling because of lacking resources, or even just stagnating/mass migrations away from the planet.

[AKicebear]

In terms of economy I do think the game could need a two tier type resource system. That is you mine basic resources out in space and then you produce key resources and special luxury resources on planets. I think that this process should be govern mostly by the private sector and planet governments, but the player should have some influence over it.

I agree. I've mentioned elsewhere that I think the design of planet development in Star Ruler 2 is something to consider - where buildings were constructed automatically based on what imported resources were in abundance. For this to be interesting in DW2, the current resource system would need to be adjusted to be multi-tier - i.e. inputs into manufacturing for intermediate and final goods.

Interesting scenarios:
- Some races prefer (are happier) from some final goods compared to others
- Some planets "naturally" are better are manufacturing certain ship components - e.g. due to other complimentary industries, or an ideal location in the logistics supply chain, etc.
- Some planets develop because:
-- they are the most logical (private sector decision, based on size/profit potential),
-- the empire encourages it (adjusting automated resource targets - perhaps upsetting planets that don't enjoy that), or
-- the planet is at a ideal location along the supply chain - it happens to skim a little freight off every freighter refueling there

This could present interesting reactions:
- Losing a planet may have ripple effects for your happiness and military readiness elsewhere, given its specialization
- The private sector may develop planets that create strategic weaknesses for you, or you could develop others which create internal unhappiness to address in another way
- A planet that enjoyed a development boom due to being a fuel station early game, may lose that as the game progresses and its is warped-by - the space equivalent of being a town without an exit from the new highway

They challenge would be UI. Players would need a better (full screen!) UI to compare what edicts are shaping supply/demand deviating away from private equilibrium across all planets, sorting them, etc. The puny little resource micro window in the bottom left is not sufficient.

Some related ideas here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7#p5127647

[thegreybetween]

With the closed Beta on the very near horizon, we should be seeing the expansion pretty soon. Given that, and how quiet the forums have been lately, I figure this is a good time to bump this thread and stoke some speculative hype again.

I stand by my OP in that I think the thing I'd most love to see (and is thematically appropriate for this xpac) is a more robust diplomacy/relationship system, so that empires can meaningfully unite against (or with!) the new Shakturi threat. Throwing money at your neighbors to manipulate opinion and enjoying the resulting treaties until you're strong enough that you must crush your friends to secure a win is...fine. But more dynamic relationship modifiers - assisting factions in conflicts to improve their opinion, gaining trust through making and honoring one-sided declarations ("We may not have a defense pact, but I promise to eliminate/repel/recover [Asset X]"), new random events where a faction might request some sort of action/resource/aid that increases/decreases opinion/reputation depending on how you respond, and so on - would make the diplomacy game much more rewarding.

And again, the ability for a SHARED win through something like alliances would be amazing. I hate having to turn on my staunch allies in the late game to eke out arbitrary win percentages. A relatively simple alternative here would be to leverage the existing Vassalization system to allow for "peaceful vassals". Much like when an Independent colony volunteers to be colonized, it would be cool if the game allowed an empire to join another without the need for military conquest. If (1) your relations are high enough, and (2) one empire is sufficiently more dominant than the other (using either existing metrics like population/trade/military power or a new metric like a "cultural dominance" check), then the weaker empire might voluntarily join/become a vassal of the stronger empire, allowing for diplomatic/peaceful mergers.

Anyway, I'm excited to see what comes with the expansion and I'm happy to know it is getting closer! What do you hope to see in the expanding universe of DW2?

[Item4369]

My wish list

Troop management overhaul
Add tooltip information about how long each troop type will take to recruit (allowing for population, buildings etc).
Allow invasion fleet to split up to gather troops from multiple sources.
Interface to order creation of attack troops with recruitment spread over multiple planets.

Ship / troop behavior
Ships should stop attacking a capture target once it has been sufficiently boarded (eg: own troops outnumber crew).
Option to automatically top up / replace destroyed ships in fleets.
Construction yards should not attempt to repair ships that are being retired.


Other UI improvements
Fix the empire cashflow indicator or remove it. It is useless and misleading for new players, because it ignores "bonus income" which is the main source of early game income.
Fix the research ETA indicator so that it gives accurate information.
Add tooltip on planet UI showing its maximum population.
Manually changing a colony tax rate should disable tax automation at that colony (otherwise your choice is reversed instantly).
Option to auto-deny pirate protection offers
The ship designer should display the calculated strength of the design


Suggested balance changes
Boarding is too easy.
Raiding is too easy and lets you wipe out huge defending armies for free.

Other
A ship design option to automatically upgrade components to the best one in the same family, without changing anything else.
Better control of automated spending. Let user specify cash levels (a,b,c) and the AI only spends money on gifts if you have more than (a) in the bank, money on crash research if you have more than (b) in the bank, etc.
First contact messages should not pause the game