Playing Axis vs AI Soviet on "Normal"

[Champagne]

I'd like to hear the thoughts of those whom have played vs the Soviet Normal AI whether the Human Axis player can win the GC 41 No Early End WHEN the Human Axis player uses the Axis AI for the Luftwaffe's Air War as well as using the AI for Depot management.

Reason for asking: It's going to take some time for me to figure out the Air War and Depot management, but, I'd like to begin a winnable GC in the meantime, if that is feasible, using the AI for Air and Depots.

Thanks.

[Wild]

I played with AI help on my first couple of games while I was learning. It did ok I guess, but it never kept up with my advance. I only played with it in '41.

I would recommend managing it yourself. If you just use ground support it is very easy to manage.

But yes, you could theoretically win with it. But I predict you won't finish the game because it will annoy you.

[loutro]

I don't use AI for depots or Air. Far better to manage that yourself.

How many GC's have you started?
My first 6 were utter failures. Maybe I am a slow learner. But you need to know how far you CAN advance and how far you NEED to advance. And how to do so.

You need an exceptional first turn; then you can manage/survive winter of '41...which impacts your Summer '42. Seriously, Turn 1 is vital.

[Champagne]

Your first SIX games were utter failures? That's disheartening.

I guess the answer is that it's not likely to win under my stated conditions with any regularity, if at all.

Thanks.

[coolts]

Do the scenarios first before drowning yourself in the GC.

The air war isn't that complicated if you don't go 100% "what does every setting do?" mode.

AS for AI Air, found I had to babysit it, and always forgot to hit the "Do AI Air stuff" button at the end of each turn so most of the Luftwaffe were still sipping coffee in Poland when my army was freezing its tits off in Moscow being bombed to bits by angry communists.

After that I did it myself. Created some missions then just either switched them off or retargeted them when needed.

Just don't move all the air force to the front or your supply will die. That's what I did.

[Champagne]

Do the scenarios first before drowning yourself in the GC.

The air war isn't that complicated if you don't go 100% "what does every setting do?" mode.

AS for AI Air, found I had to babysit it, and always forgot to hit the "Do AI Air stuff" button at the end of each turn so most of the Luftwaffe were still sipping coffee in Poland when my army was freezing its tits off in Moscow being bombed to bits by angry communists.

After that I did it myself. Created some missions then just either switched them off or retargeted them when needed.

Just don't move all the air force to the front or your supply will die. That's what I did.

This is great advice! Thanks.

I should use this thread to ask for advice concerning the various YouTube videos out there on this game. Which ones do a good job of covering How to Handle the Air War and How to Handle Depot Building? There's so many videos on YouTube - that's why some recommendations would be appreciated.

[Jango32]

You don't need anything more than naval patrol, recon and air supplies. In singleplayer you can ignore everything else about the air war. For PvP you just need to know how to do air superiority as Axis, and air superiority & ground attack spam as Soviets in addition to the previous missions. Ground support and ground attack are useful for turn 1 Axis, I guess.

As for depots, just spam them every 5 hexes away or so on a rail. The more depots you have, the more freight they'll bring up, weirdly enough. You would think that a single depot could take up 5k freight at once compared to 5 depots taking up 1k freight each, but that's not how it plays out.

[Champagne]

Thanks, Jango, and, just some of my thoughts on the Real War air war situation, I'm no expert, but, I've been studying WW2 for decades as an amateur military history buff.

The Luftwaffe was a not a strategic force projection military air force. It was not capable of that at any time in WW2. It was a tactical and operational force projection entity that existed to support military ground operations. And even given that limited role, the Luftwaffe in 1941 was in many ways more weak than it was during the Battle of Britain. Many of the losses incurred in the Battle of Britain were not replaced by 22 June 1941. Also, given the vast spaces in Russia and the German deficiencies in its logistical systems, it should be no surprise if the Luftwaffe in this game can't dominate the board and smite the Bolsheviks - it wasn't strong enough to do that.

Thoughts?

[AlbertN]

Thanks, Jango, and, just some of my thoughts on the Real War air war situation, I'm no expert, but, I've been studying WW2 for decades as an amateur military history buff.

The Luftwaffe was a not a strategic force projection military air force. It was not capable of that at any time in WW2. It was a tactical and operational force projection entity that existed to support military ground operations. And even given that limited role, the Luftwaffe in 1941 was in many ways more weak than it was during the Battle of Britain. Many of the losses incurred in the Battle of Britain were not replaced by 22 June 1941. Also, given the vast spaces in Russia and the German deficiencies in its logistical systems, it should be no surprise if the Luftwaffe in this game can't dominate the board and smite the Bolsheviks - it wasn't strong enough to do that.

Thoughts?

Err ... historically the Luftwaffe was mobile artillery for the Germans and integrant part of their mobile warfare doctrine. So yes, it helped loads in the rapid advances and disrupting the enemy movement and concentrations.

In this game, as Jango said - you only use this and that.
All knowledgeable PvP players pretty much bring the German Stukas, Level bombers, and whatever either in the reserve or in bases around NSS.
Because they're useless, in fact to have the Luftwaffe bombers benefits the Russians - because the freight they consume (and thus not going to ground forces) is not worth the effect they have.

[Champagne]

Thanks for the input, AlbertN. Yes, I agree with your comments regarding the Luftwaffe's usefulness in the Ground Support role when it was used like "flying artillery" strikes. No doubt that they were decisive in many tactical and maybe even operational levels.

I'd like to expand, if we may, on your observations about the Luftwaffe's Stuka and Level Bombers being based near the NSS or in the National Reserve. Your conclusion is that their usefulness at the front is not worth the Freight that they consume while operating at the front. The ground forces are starved for freight when the Luftwaffe's Stukas and Bombers are at the front. That freight that is saved by basing the bombers in the rear is better used by the ground forces, because the ground forces are effective when the Luftwaffe's airplanes are based in the rear - they are better Supplied in this case, and so, are much more effective. Have I stated your observations correctly?

Thanks.

[Champagne]

You don't need anything more than naval patrol, recon and air supplies. In singleplayer you can ignore everything else about the air war. For PvP you just need to know how to do air superiority as Axis, and air superiority & ground attack spam as Soviets in addition to the previous missions. Ground support and ground attack are useful for turn 1 Axis, I guess.

As for depots, just spam them every 5 hexes away or so on a rail. The more depots you have, the more freight they'll bring up, weirdly enough. You would think that a single depot could take up 5k freight at once compared to 5 depots taking up 1k freight each, but that's not how it plays out.

Jango, is there a Saved Game file or two that I could get from you, so that I can see this "Depot Spam" plan in action? Thanks for your time.

[AbeMuc]

You don't need anything more than naval patrol, recon and air supplies. In singleplayer you can ignore everything else about the air war. For PvP you just need to know how to do air superiority as Axis, and air superiority & ground attack spam as Soviets in addition to the previous missions. Ground support and ground attack are useful for turn 1 Axis, I guess.

As for depots, just spam them every 5 hexes away or so on a rail. The more depots you have, the more freight they'll bring up, weirdly enough. You would think that a single depot could take up 5k freight at once compared to 5 depots taking up 1k freight each, but that's not how it plays out.

Jango, is there a Saved Game file or two that I could get from you, so that I can see this "Depot Spam" plan in action? Thanks for your time.

As for depot management. I followed a tip I read multiple times. Build depots on every hexrail with a railway station. To see these press L. Just do that and you are basically fine.

[Champagne]

Thanks!

Shift - L !! What a GREAT tip! It does show where all of the Railyards are located !

Very helpful!

One final question, I assume that once we build these Depots on these Railyard locations, we should leave the Depots on Priority 4? Or maybe lower the rearward ones in order to "Pulse" the freight towards the front line?

Thanks.

[M60A3TTS]

In the south I typically make changes to three depots along the primary double-track route. Reducing priority at Lvov, Tarnopol or Proskurov will allow the freight to flow to depots farther east. Occasionally Kiev may have some freight to offload onto the grid.



Just leave them at priority 4 all other times to get them re-loaded as fast as possible.

You should also be getting freight by sea through Odessa first, then Nikolaev and Kherson later.

Also with this setup, you can see I don't have the Luftwaffe sitting back in the rear. The army is getting enough to manage for the most part.

[Easy301]

I don't use AI for depots or Air. Far better to manage that yourself.

How many GC's have you started?
My first 6 were utter failures. Maybe I am a slow learner. But you need to know how far you CAN advance and how far you NEED to advance. And how to do so.

You need an exceptional first turn; then you can manage/survive winter of '41...which impacts your Summer '42. Seriously, Turn 1 is vital.

As a new player learning and drinking from the fire hose of information this thread has been incredibly helpful. It has promoted some questions though.

1. Everyone keeps talking about managing the air war, specifically what level of management are we talking about? Is creating your own air directives/missions enough or should we be diving in fully into the air war? It seems like there's various layers of "manual control" when it comes to the air war so even just a list of essential skills or subjects to learn would help greatly. What level of management do most people recommend?

2. I've been doing a good job reading and learning the mechanics, nothing has been downright confusing but putting it all together into practice is something I'm almost paralyzed on. The post I quoted above is a perfect example of this...

I have no idea how far I CAN or NEED to advance my first turn, I've kind of just been doing an "this looks far enough ' type thing which I'm sure isn't doing me too good. How and where do I look to start learning things like this? I'll look at some AARs and try and extrapolate some things from those but does anyone have some general tips when it comes to the above? Does anyone have any good turn 1 or "how far can I/should I advance?" rule of thumbs?

3. Someone above said to just build depots on every railyard hex as I advance, I'll set these to level 4 as I build them near the front and then as I advance I can just turn them down to level 3, is that an okish plan at least for a new player?

I'm in this weird spot right now as a new player where I'm getting paralyzed in turn one in the GC (only played as Axis). I'm still having an amazing time but I'd be lying if I said any of my games have gotten past the first turn at this point. This command paralysis certainly comes from a lack of confidence I'd guess, knowing all the mechanics of the game on a basic level but really not knowing how to bring it all together. How do I know how far I should advance on turn one? At what point should I end the turn? How much micro should I focus on air as a new player?

It's this vicious cycle because I'm sure to answer a lot of these questions I should at least get myself past turn 1 consistently but I'm stuck around that point because I feel I lack the command knowledge to be confident in my choices and just end the dang turn, probably because things like when and how far to advance I'm just clueless on.

Thank you to anyone who has taken the time to read this and you may be able to provide some responses and tips, I'd be very grateful and appreciative.

[loutro]

A couple things to consider:

• How you play the game is very much a personal preference. If you don't want to deal with managing the Air war, don't fret it. Try playing one GC using the Air AI and focus on mastering the ground war.

• This is probably THE MOST detailed game ever. There is a lot to understand, a lot to manage. Go with what suits you. You can go down many a rabbit hole, e.g.; managing the Theater Boxes. Keep it simple at first.

• Save games often. I have about 5-6 saves PER turn. Post Air /AI/AGN/AGC/AGS. If I screw up I can go back. At the very least I have saves that I can go back to and use for reference.

• I keep a small notebook when playing. I write out my objectives and which units will go where. There can be days between playing and I will never remember what I wanted to do unless I write it down. I love planning and organizing, this just works for me.

Play Turn 1 as best you can.
Move on to Turn 2. Just keep going through turns so you can experience the momentum of the first few months. This is the only way you can learn how the game works, how to design and implement your strategy. You'll make mistakes but you will learn and get better.

There will be supply issues. There will be weather challenges. There will be a shortage of units. These are the challenges you must work with. That is part of the fun of this game.

Regarding how far you should go on Turn 1, I am sure you have seen the link below in the War Room; it gives a good idea of what is possible. Just use this as a template; add or subtract what works for you. There is no wrong way to play....unless Berlin falls in September 1941.


https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=400262

Above all, just have fun. It's a game!

Now push those panzers forward!

[coolts]

Don't stress too much about perfect turn 1's. Seriously, half this forum is about turn bloody 1. As long as you pocket / destroy as much as you can and move those rail repair units forward on the key double track lines unhindered, you are good.

Winter is what you should be worrying about, not turn one.

Enjoy the summer!

[Zovs]

You have to look at it from a competitive MP or PVP perspective not against the AI, a mediocre Axis turn 1 is a disaster for the rest of the game. So the Axis needs a strong and effective turn one. Against the Ai who cares, just start over or reload.

[Joel Billings]

If you want to see a rough guide on a possible turn 1, run the AI on turn 1. It will give you something to shoot for as far as the central pocket and moves in the north and how you might accomplish it. The south is harder to deal with. I think Tyrone (he did the AI script) concluded it was too hard to create a good AI script that tried more more than a deep penetration along the rail line to Tarnopol. Human players have done other things because they can react as the turn develops, but I don't think it is as important as the moves in the center and north. Against the AI though, you should not let turn 1 keep from going on, unless you are coming up short of the targets in the center and/or your main center/north pockets are broken.

[Champagne]

Good Advice, Joel.