What happens with captured elements?

[Granatenwerfer100]

Hello,

in my scenario, Destruction of the Southwestern Front, in the production screen I click on Germany an then I scroll down until the 'CAPTURED' entry, not documented in the manual, appears. Here I can see a lot of elements I have captured.
What happens with this stuff?

Thank you.

[Wiedrock]

Automatically/genrally, nothing.

The game converts some of the equipment into "captured equipment"/Beutepanzer - so it changes those equipments to a completely new element. On Geman side those then you usually can find when searching for "(r)" in the commanders report's equipment tab.
Those elements are somewhat limited by historical figures (which were reported/reports survived time), so if Germans only ever used 200 T-34 tanks actively in combat, there will only be a max of 200 if those be converted from captured tanks.

[HansBolter]

Automatically/genrally, nothing.

Those elements are somewhat limited by historical figures (which were reported/reports survived time), so if Germans only ever used 200 T-34 tanks actively in combat, there will only be a max of 200 if those be converted from captured tanks.

Please tell me this isn't the case. As I worked to completely destroy the Soviet Army, more and more Soviet units were destroyed by surrendering, apparently, I was stupid enough to belive this meant I was collecting all of thier equipment for my use. How INCREDIBLY stupid can it possibly to place historic limitations on games that will never have historic outcomes.

The Soviet bias in this game design is beyond the pale.

[Light4bettor]

Leads one to imagine just how were the Germans dealing with all those T-34 tanks they captured in the first 3-4 months of Barbarossa? Was there some kind of standing order that the T-34s that were in working order would be consolidated and protected somehow? In a central location (or decentralized), kept in running order, spare parts accumulated, teams trained to maintain them, while it was still being decided what to do with them? (all while the German logistical system was running past its breaking point).

If I recall correctly, the ones that Das Reich used in 1943 (i think around 60 in total- but my memory says 32 T-34s) had their gun optics upgraded to the German produced tank optics (and radios) before they were used in action.

What I'm getting at is that any more effort put into making more T-34's available than was done historically is going to come at some cost (war effort wise) - "taking from Peter to pay Paul". How are you gonna decide how to quantify that in game? Answer: it's not feasible given the complexity of the war- therefore keeping the effort that was actually put forth historically is much simpler. (not to mention, that historically the amount of captured T-34s that were in good enough shape to be considered for use is probably not as high as one might suppose.) In his book on the Kursk battle "Armor and Blood"- author Showalter puts Soviet tank crew deaths for the duration of WW2 at 250,000-300,000 range- which is astounding given that the number does not include wounded, though I imagine the ratio of dead to wounded in Soviet tank crews may trend toward less wounded than dead. (There weren't many captured Soviet tanks fit for service after the 1941 encirclement battles).

Your claim about Soviet bias (whatever its merit or lack thereof) is irrelevant to the question.

[DekeFentle]

What I'm getting at is that any more effort put into making more T-34's available than was done historically is going to come at some cost (war effort wise) - "taking from Peter to pay Paul". How are you gonna decide how to quantify that in game? Answer: it's not feasible given the complexity of the war- therefore keeping the effort that was actually put forth historically is much simpler. (not to mention, that historically the amount of captured T-34s that were in good enough shape to be considered for use is probably not as high as one might suppose.) In his book on the Kursk battle- author Showalter puts Soviet tank crew deaths for the duration of WW2 at 250,000-300,000 range- which is astounding given that the number does not include wounded. (There weren't many captured Soviet tanks fit for service after 41 encirclement battles).

Your claim about Soviet bias (whatever its merit or lack thereof) is irrelevant to the question.

Thank you Light4bettor,

Couldn't agree more with your observation(s)

[Granatenwerfer100]

I remember reading somewhere that the Germans brought together captured T34 tanks and also Sherman tanks, which had been given to the Soviets by the USA, in a special division.
The reason for this was that these captured tanks were considered too valuable to simply destroy.
They did not want to divide the tanks among the existing German divisions because they hoped to achieve synergy effects by combining them in a single division. And also advantages in terms of know-how and the ability to repair these tanks.

Unfortunately, I can no longer remember the source. Otherwise I would have mentioned it here.

[Light4bettor]

You know, by the fall of 1941, once the Germans had realized the Soviets may not be facing an imminent collapse they rushed to field measures to counter the T-34/KV-1 types that they had as of yet no tank equivalents for. The Marder I tank destroyers that came out in the first half of 1942 as an answer to the Heer's needs (basically anti T-34/KV-1 mobile gun platforms) many were armed with captured soviet 76mm field guns that had been captured during the the summer 1941 encirclement battles (they did some modifications to the Soviet gun so it was closer to German preferences/standards).

I think more directly to your question- the official reports on captured enemy equipment that you can read weekly adds to the immersion factor of the game- Just like if you were a staff officer at OKH- you can see reports coming from the front about approximate numbers of items captured so far (but thats as far as it goes since everything else is automated by the game). That being said, if a German unit in game was historically going to get issued T-34s (or some other captured equipment)- if you did not capture the necessary numbers of it- then that historical event may not happen. The only things I'm aware of is Das Reich getting some T-34s prior to Operation Zittadelle in 1943, and the Marder series of tank destroyer using the Soviet Field Gun (and i think there were so many of those field guns captured -maybe in the range of 7-10,000-that historically some may have been issued to some German divisions as regular artillery/anti tank field pieces- some number of those Soviet 76mm field guns found their way for service in the Afrika Korps for example. Also some captured Russian artillery might be sent to Axis allies (but I'm not sure about the last two I mentioned).

I've never heard of a "special unit" of T34/Sherman tanks. Again, when speculating about it, I tend to fall back on incentives and motivation for expenditure of effort- you are already tired and lacking resources- you probably only have the energy and motivation to maintain/ use your own equipment (assuming it at least has parity/or competitive characteristics with the enemy types) at any scale beyond marginal/special case scenarios.

This reminds me of numerous photo examples of the Soviet improvised anti-air machine guns- where they had put together like 10-15 captured MG34 machine guns (an anti-aircraft improvised combined firing piece, the design was gross) to fire at German aircraft (presumably since they were MG34s they were probably collected from downed He111/Ju88s- I think its a testament to how boring it could get on the frontlines for long periods of time. I dunno how effective they were- but I'm sure it was a trip to fire 10 MG34s simultaneously. ( i think they were using the drum magazines in many cases).

[DarkHorse2]

The fact of the matter, despite the hype, is that the 1941 T-34 was not that good of a tank. (they did get much better later on.... )

Mr. Askey touches on it here:
https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the ... rformance/

It is fair to say they suffered an operational loss rate of 40%. (non-combat losses)

Cramped, poor optics, poor fire control efficiency ...

German tank crews were not eager to use them. (In huge contrast to Soviet winter clothing, Soviet trucks, Soviet SMGs, ...)

One source claims the following -

According to official data, in May 1943, there were 63 Russian tanks in the Wehrmacht (of which 50 were T-34), and in December 1944 - 53 Russian tanks (49 of them were T-34).

Out of the 1000's of T-34s captured, there are only 50 in use in May 1943? That is not that many.

KV-1s ?

Between 1941 and 1943, the German army likely dealt with thousands of lost KV tanks, of which perhaps several hundred were captured in working condition. It is thought however that less than 50 KV-1 tanks were pressed into German service. A multitude of factors can explain this, from lack of spare parts, to German overconfidence in their own tanks, to the Nazi ideological doctrine that viewed anything manufactured by a Slavic race to be inferior.

SU-85s?

Captured SU-85s in German service (BeutePanzerjäger SU-85 748(r)) were not uncommon in 1943-44, since many of them were disabled and evacuated, but towed and repaired by the Wehrmacht, which tried to replace depleted units.

While not an overwhelming number, around 127 SU-85 tank destroyers were pressed into German service during World War II, primarily after being captured on the Eastern Front

[DarkHorse2]

As far as WiTE2, I am not sure what happens with captured equipment anymore.

In the latest GC41 game, beginning in 1942 (T29) I am seeing the introduction of various equipment in the production view with the (r) suffix.

T-34B 747(r) ar:2 - 2 2 0
82mm GrW 274(r) Mortar ar:15 - 15 15 0
76.2mm FK36(r) Field Gun ar:25 - 25 25 0

... and so on.

Is this how captured Soviet equipment is being introduced into German units now?

[Denniss]

These are captured weapons which were used by germany en masse so we decided to create a german element for.
Soe of the weapons were modified for german use, other not. For some weapons germans even produced ammunition