Poll - King Karl XII of Sweden

Kung Karl · Post by **Kung Karl** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:15 pm

The great northern war broke out in 1700 and were fought by numerous countries in northern europe between 1700 - 1721. The war was mainly fought by Sweden against Poland-Saxony, Russia and Denmark, other countries did later in the war declare war on Sweden though.

Sweden was by that time ruled by a King named Karl XII (Charles XII). He is considered a Warrior king because he spent his entire adult life in the fields fighting the enemies of Sweden. (18 years)

Now to the point, he was considered a tactical genius and won many great victories for Sweden. An example is the battle of Narva were 8000 swedes defeated 30 000 russians. All of europe great powers feard him becasue of his brilliant army and exeptional leadership. In the year of 1706 the army of Sweden could be considered not the largest but the greatest fighting machine in europe.

How many of you none scandinavian knows anything about this war and king? Many people say that his victories and the entire war is largly forgotten in western europe because it was fought in eastern europe and did not get that much attention.

(Sweden lost the war after 21 years of struggeling)

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:18 pm

And for you English speakers here, King Karl XII is probably more known to you as "Carolus", which is the latin version of Karl, and also the name he used himself when signing documents.

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:37 pm

Never heard of the guy or any wars fought by Sweden (and I'm fairly well educated for an American). I always thought you guys were peace loving in "modern" times. I also watch alot of HistoryChannel, etc, but we don't get much on eastern european and scandanavian happenings that I can recall. Other than that, your ladies are reputed to be very pretty.

jzpops · Post by **jzpops** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:07 pm

As for this American, I know of King Karl XII, and can (probably) recall on any given day that he was from Northern/Scandinavian Europe. I can also vaguely recall a series of wars, or as you state, one long war, in the 18th Century involving Eastern Europe and Scandinavian countries. Aside from that, I wouldn't remember much, even the details of the combatants (except for lucky guesses or vague recollections). But when mentioned in passing, or in brief detail (such as you mentioned above), I will recognise what you're talking about... but I couldn't name a single prominent battle or general. I'd even be fuzzy on tactics and weaponry (although, once again, I could probably make several well-educated guesses).

Hope this response doesn't generate any ill-will!

showboat1 · Post by **showboat1** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:24 pm

I have heard of Carolus but Karl or Charles XII. Basically all I knew was he was considered a military genius, he was a king, and he was Swedish. Of course, its not really my field of specialty.

ShermanM4 · Post by **ShermanM4** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:42 pm

I have heard of this King and that war because I am a college student and took a course on the Russian Tsars. Otherwise I do not think I would know. I think the reason for this being is because every modern society does not really appreciate history. Also, because in highschool and every European History Course i've had since relates, the real war that Sweeden is remembered for, is the 1618-1648 Thritry Years War. The accomplishments of Adalophus Gustavus in Sweden, the Baltic, and what is now called Germany was important in shaping modern Europe.

Fred98 · Post by **Fred98** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:16 am

I am Australian with anscestors from England, Ireland, Scotland, Sweden and Germany.

No, I have never heard of him.

Note that Napoleon arrived 100 years later and is therefore "more recent" and had a great effect on moder Europe.

Of course Napoleon fought in Eastern Europe too.

Kung Karl · Post by **Kung Karl** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:58 am

Note that I am not promoting swedes or nationalism or saying that Sweden is excelent in military affairs. God knows were not. After the death of Karl XII sweden hasn't been good at the art of war.

But, for those of you that are interested in military history king Karl XII or Carolus (I will in the future call him Carolus) is a realy good person to study. He soldiers were exeptional trained and were realy ahead in military tactic. The Swedish cavalry charge, for example, was famous because of it arrow formation that broke the enemy ranks and routed the enemy. This is a person that not many of the international people that reads history is aware of but he was in his time a very important figure.

The idea of this thread was not about promoting Sweden but to make people aware of a person/war that has great value to military interested people.

Keep the discussion going!

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:00 pm

One interesting detail is that the army kept the pikemen well into the 18th century! The infantry formations was made up of a company of pikemen, surrounded by a company of riflemen (three lines deep to each side), a somewhat out-dated form of combat but efficient for breaking cavalry charges.

About the only other army in Europe that also kept the pikemen to this time was the Russian - so it must have been interesting for 'outsiders' to observe the Swedish-Russian battles, full of modern cavalry and artillery along with these veritable forests of pikemen running around.

msaario · Post by **msaario** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:05 pm

I got this book about the 30 years war sitting on my table, but I have to finish Berlin 1945 before I can divulge myself in this.

Weren't the best fighters in the Swedish army Finns? At least that's what we've always been told...

--Mikko

Kung Karl · Post by **Kung Karl** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:24 pm

msaario wrote:I got this book about the 30 years war sitting on my table, but I have to finish Berlin 1945 before I can divulge myself in this.

Weren't the best fighters in the Swedish army Finns? At least that's what we've always been told...

--Mikko

Maybe they were.

as I know there weren't any finns at that time, just swedes since Finland always had been an part of the swedish Empire. I don't think at that time anybody in finland thought about separtion since they were just as much swedes as anyone else in the empire. But yes, I have also heard that myth.

Another funny note is that men from the province of Skåne wasn't allowed in his majesty elite guard since they weren't considered reliable soldiers. (Skåne was conquerd from denmark in 1658)

Energizer · Post by **Energizer** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:54 pm

Kung Karl wrote:...How many of you none scandinavian knows anything about this war and king?...

Since Finland is not a part of Scandinavia, I guess I'll qualify...

Let´s see. Last six books I've read are:

Ofredsår (Englund)
Poltava (Englud)
Berlin 1945 (Beevor)
Oövervinnelige (Englund)
Sie kommen (Carell)
Die Wüstenfüchse (Carell)

(Hope I got spelling right, I read all these in Finnish though)

So yes, Poltava was about Karl XII - Kaarle XII in Finnish. Also his exploits are well teached in Finnish schools. And besides, I love kåldolmar!

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:33 pm

msaario wrote:Weren't the best fighters in the Swedish army Finns? At least that's what we've always been told...

--Mikko

Yep Mikko!

Well, if they were the best I'm not sure, but the Hakkapäälitas (sp? I don't know how to pluralize Finnish nouns...) did form the closest bodyguard around the King, and so they ofcourse gained a reputation of élan and battle prowess.

For the English readers: Hakkapääle = bash head (literally)

Btw, those were infamous already in the 30 years war.

msaario · Post by **msaario** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:10 am

Ok, sorry to be picky... about the spelling:

"Hakkapeliitta" (...peliitat plural) and
"Hakkaa päälle"

It is nice to know that our western "cousins" do confirm this

I must finish off the Berlin book quickly and get on with the 30 years war stuff! What an interesting era (I recommend along with the Roman empire)!

--Mikko

Kung Karl · Post by **Kung Karl** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:58 am

Just to clarify, Carolus did not fight the 30 years war. The Swedes were good fighters then too but it was the in the great northern war the Swedish military outshined every other army.

K62_ · Post by **K62_** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 6:08 am

Kung Karl wrote:Just to clarify, Carolus did not fight the 30 years war. The Swedes were good fighters then too but it was the in the great northern war the Swedish military outshined every other army.

Yep, heard of him. Also heard of Gustav Adolphus. Who died a heroic death in battle, unlike Karl. IIRC, the latter ended in some backwater by the Black Sea :rolleyes:

varjager · Post by **varjager** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:06 am

Karl XII died by a gunshoot to the head in the trenches in norway.

U2 · Post by U2 » Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:39 am

Kung Karl wrote:Just to clarify, Carolus did not fight the 30 years war. The Swedes were good fighters then too but it was the in the great northern war the Swedish military outshined every other army.

Karl the 12th has always been a favorite of mine when it comes to history and warfare. Talk about a great army. It's a shame this part of history is not well known outside Scadinavia and for people interested in Russian history.

wulfir · Post by **wulfir** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:52 pm

K62 wrote:Also heard of Gustav Adolphus. Who died a heroic death in battle, unlike Karl. IIRC, the latter ended in some backwater by the Black Sea :rolleyes:

Gustavus Adolphus (Gustav II Adolf) had bad vision (and didn't wear glasses, because at the time it was considered only an idiot needed glasses), rode an unfamiliar horse and got lost in the fog at Lützen where he was killed.

Carolus (Karl XII) took part in virtually every battle fought, being wounded so many times that he got a rep of being 'hard against bullets', i.e. imortal. Some claim he was shot by an assasin who had used a bullet made of a button stolen from the king's jacket. It was supposed to have been the only way of killing him, as a only a thing perviously of his possesion would harm him.

Kung Karl · Post by **Kung Karl** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:39 pm

Carolus was afaik the last King in europe that charged with he front line of his own army and never demanded anything from his soldiers he wouldn't do himself. Carolus never gave the order "go!", he gave the order "come with me!" The other Kings and Commander at that time commanded their army from an hill at a safe location.

The fact that the King fought as an regular soldier boosted the moral enourmously. He didn't even have an officers uniform but instead wore a reugalr soldier unifrom. Because of this the Swedish lines never crumbled even though they were badly outnumberd. The men didn't fight for their King, they fought with him.