Super Americans in SPWAW 4.5

gdrobinson · Post by **gdrobinson** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:59 am

I just loaded version 4.5 and played my son (Americans) and myself as the German in 6-1943. After being killed the first time, we played again and this time I carefully noted the following: I counted a Wolverine taking 10 (!) defensive shots after taking 4 offensive shots. It withstood an assult from a Pz-IV, flame tank, then engineers and SS infantry with no appearent suppression before a third infantry squad finally destroyed him. I then took a saved game and moved a sherman 14 hexes through a field of rifle squads taking rifle gernade hits every square. At the end of the move the sherman arrived to without any suppression and no loss of shots from movement.
My question is simple: What is up with the American OOB? Have they been granted godlike powers? In previous versions it was very dificult for the Americans to win a meeting-engagement. I know Wild Bill loves the Americans but.....
Am I nuts or am I the only guy to notice this?

USMCGrunt · Post by **USMCGrunt** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 8:25 am

Originally posted by gdrobinson:
I just loaded version 4.5 and played my son (Americans) and myself as the German in 6-1943. After being killed the first time, we played again and this time I carefully noted the following: I counted a Wolverine taking 10 (!) defensive shots after taking 4 offensive shots. It withstood an assult from a Pz-IV, flame tank, then engineers and SS infantry with no appearent suppression before a third infantry squad finally destroyed him. I then took a saved game and moved a sherman 14 hexes through a field of rifle squads taking rifle gernade hits every square. At the end of the move the sherman arrived to without any suppression and no loss of shots from movement.
My question is simple: What is up with the American OOB? Have they been granted godlike powers? In previous versions it was very dificult for the Americans to win a meeting-engagement. I know Wild Bill loves the Americans but.....
Am I nuts or am I the only guy to notice this?

gd,

You might want to check your sons preferences settings. I have the feeling they may have been reset a bit.

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USMCGrunt

-When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

Dagobert · Post by **Dagobert** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 9:55 am

It's gotta be something like that. I'm deep into Utah to the Rhine and I count it a lucky day when the Wolverines are the only armor that gets waxed. And I can't count the Shermans I've lost to German infantry AT weapons and engineers.

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:28 pm

Heh, heh, ya, sounds like a 250 setting to me!!!

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 9:56 pm

yeah, 250 troop quality

every infantry squad in game runs after it has received enough fire, except japs...

Wolvies have big gun but no armor, they should get immo and hatches closed/buttoned with 42MG. After that they are easy to destroy with stielgranades.

mosh

DoubleDeuce · Post by **DoubleDeuce** » Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:53 pm

I need some Wolverines and Shermans like that. Mine are currently being hammered by the germans in a 44 PBEM battle.

BruceAZ · Post by **BruceAZ** » Sat Feb 24, 2001 5:33 am

[Check your son's settings as this a 250 issue. Or maybe he is getting back at you for reducing his allowance?

Bruce
Semper Fi
]Originally posted by gdrobinson:
I just loaded version 4.5 and played my son (Americans) and myself as the German in 6-1943. After being killed the first time, we played again and this time I carefully noted the following: I counted a Wolverine taking 10 (!) defensive shots after taking 4 offensive shots. It withstood an assult from a Pz-IV, flame tank, then engineers and SS infantry with no appearent suppression before a third infantry squad finally destroyed him. I then took a saved game and moved a sherman 14 hexes through a field of rifle squads taking rifle gernade hits every square. At the end of the move the sherman arrived to without any suppression and no loss of shots from movement.
My question is simple: What is up with the American OOB? Have they been granted godlike powers? In previous versions it was very dificult for the Americans to win a meeting-engagement. I know Wild Bill loves the Americans but.....
Am I nuts or am I the only guy to notice this?[/QUOTE]

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"The most important element in war is man. And there are no tougher men than my China Marines." Major Gen. Archer 'Archy' Vandegrift, 1st Marine Division

gdrobinson · Post by **gdrobinson** » Sat Feb 24, 2001 10:19 pm

I checked the troop quality preferences and they are all default. My kid did not juice the American morale or experience nor infantry or tank toughness. Sorry guys the explaination is not that simple

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Sat Feb 24, 2001 10:48 pm

Hmm, it must be something coded in then, similar to the Soviet Guards! I ran into a PBEM against a fellow, where as the Germans in '43, I took a severe spanking from the U.S., so severe, that I broke it off, just couldn't deal with it!! I don't mind losing, mind you, but dammit, I at least want my efforts to show something, other than every time I shoot from a stationary Pz IVF2, with a chance of 50%, and miss, or hit, and no penetrate. They would return, one shot, one kill! Screw that I said, and graciously called off the game

I've noticed that MOST PBEM that I've done, particularly as Germans, that you suffer abnormally against a human player, but do the same game against a AI, and it's reasonable??! Something wrong here, and it ain't all tactics! My scenario, Thunder at Banya Pass, played well against the AI, although as the Hungarians, you must work very hard to get a draw, well, I decided to play a fellow from Bulgaria, a newbie this scenario, and I lost!! Not only lost, which as before, I don't mind, but my Hungarians DIDN't EVEN WASTE ONE SOVIET TANK!! And lost almost everyone of my 30+ Pz IV's!! Something is wrong when the game is played H-H?? Now, if you manipulate the Morale, and Experience around, it gets acceptable.

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Sat Feb 24, 2001 11:13 pm

AmmoSgt and I are having a talk about this very thing. We decided to switch roles with me taking the US and she the Germans in 43. US airborne rallies almost as well as the Japanese often going from very high supression to having movement points, something the Germans get stuck at just at the movement point part. I'm taking German FJ and SS, but it doesn't seem to matter. Armor isn't as bad, but it's a mystry why crews can rally well while if they are in a track they don't do as well.

The other thing that bothers me a bit is the German armor other than the Panthers and Tigers. Historicly the PZIV's and the Stugs did very well, in their time period and were probably the mainstay due to numbers. Game wise I won't buy them, which is too bad because of several things. Oppenants get disgusted always going up against the Tigers, Tigers and Panthers are exspensive.

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PR
http://electricwar.tripod.com/

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 12:05 am

Ok with all the axis players expressing there concern about the Americans , I have been giving them a Hard Look ( would you like some cheese and crackers with your wine

) .. sorry..anyway..
There is some weirdness in the points cost and how it gets Modified ..if you compare the OBed Cost, the true troop buy cost as adjusted for leadership ect and with the point value of the unit in the right click on the unit itself unit information box...
It could use some looking at..i suspect that the morale factors ect are doing some weird stuff maybe ..i don't know all i need to know.. but US gear cost less than the OBed fixed costs generally, at 70/70/70, and the German stuff costs more ..now to me that says the Germans are getting a morale bonus since their prices are higher than OBed.. but i seems the Americans are benefiting more even thought they cost less than OBed cost listings at about 70/70/70 ..I dunno ..i have just started digging in around things because i want to assure each and every axis player that I creamed them fair and square ...

Just want a fair game ..but i still do truely think it is Tactics, pure a simple ,and folks expecting more than what should be expected from German gear because of popular myth and then risking units in accordance with expectations and getting them killed because they are, after all, german or not, just a tank.. but this should be looked into

[This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited February 24, 2001).]

Arralen · Post by **Arralen** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 12:18 am

Try the following:

Country Training OFF

True Troop Cost OFF

Troop Quality 70

all others 100%

Than play again and watch out if they are still that good.

If not, open the old savegame and look for the unit leaders' stats (write them down) of both sides, and be so nice to post them here.
Thanks .

A.

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 12:45 am

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Just want a fair game ..but i still do truely think it is Tactics, pure a simple ,and folks expecting more than what should be expected from German gear because of popular myth and then risking units in accordance with expectations and getting them killed because they are, after all, german or not, just a tank.. but this should be looked into

[This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited February 24, 2001).]

Tactics can't be denied. I'd like to think I'm not buying into the myth at this point but looking at the overall "feel". Elite is elite and with even a mediocare base rate they don't feel like they are doing well, especialy after playing US Airborne. I can get airborne from 99 down to 1 all too often. Like I said before, the sticking point is that 9 - 12 range where movement kicks in. It's like the roll to pass this for the Germans is off or something.

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PR
http://electricwar.tripod.com/

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 12:55 am

Arralen, thanks man, will have to try that!! And about the StuG's, I had read that most of the crews for these were volunteers, and generally better crewman experience-wise than the average tank man, at least early on, till attrition took them.Ammo, it wasn't tactics, I was hidden most of the time, next turn my tank was in ruins, the ones I actually got to shoot with, usually were lucky to get 1-2 shots, usually not effective, IF they even hit, then would buy it, while the Shermans would continue on their merry way!!! This is BS, I'm not an advocate of the German myth, but I do happen to know the German tanks had very good optics, and in '43 were not that terrible crewed!!

Like I said, I don't mind losing, but I really have a problem with a walk-over, and my efforts seemingly not effective in the least!! Also., the infantry I had was SS, and with the Elite status should also have gotten out of suppression a whole lot more than they were, I couldn't get them to change orders hardly at all!! Just think something is really wrong here. And I generally try to pick more historical units, medium tanks, not hordes of Panther, maybe a section at best of Tiger, I just hate the best of the best BS, and usually now insist also on no off-board arty for meeting engagements, got tired of tons of the highest caliber arty available to a country being used...with a Bn force, give me a break!!

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:59 am

Anyone who has been around Steel Panthers for a while and played the campaigns, for example as the Germans. Starting out with say the cheaper Stugs and getting to upgrade to a turreted track with a gun as good or better, knows the good feeling. But it didn't happen at all if the quility of the Stug was bad to begin with and it just wasn't so. Somehow I feel it's been lost, at least in human vs human play. Tactics now shows itself and while I'm no Rommel, even I come up with something good once in a while.

I'd guess that the main spoiler is area artillery fire, no more the armor loss to artillery destruction but loss to artillery surpression. I don't think I've lost more than a tank or two with all the pbem league games I've played to artillery. I can remember when the Soviet 122mm's were terrors if you sat still and not because of surpression. Now my armor fear is getting artillery surpressed and having the infantry take me out.

I'd like my Stugs and PZIV's back and to see the area surpression of artillery toned down. But this is just me.

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PR
http://electricwar.tripod.com/

krull · Post by **krull** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:18 am

Hmm I been play US in pbem games and ecept for 1 I get creame din 1 shot otr 2 from german tanks even Piv's. Plus my bazookas never hit. Althru i dont use alot airborne I buy some and may armored infantry does bettery wirth out alot artillary and infantry Germans just roll over the top. ALL i been able to do is stick shermans and wolverines out as bait to lure them into infantry assualt ranges. I been telling my oppanents that the US sucks. Althru I had one good game vs Packrat rest I jsut got murdered. And only reason I did ok vs Pack was i caught him in the open. AND artillaryed him to death. EXACT oppsite in pacfic for me US troops shoot 3 to 2 hexes away where my Japs cant see but 1 hex. Shermans immune to flamethowers close assults etc. Not to mention unstobale infantry A million shots and then move away etc.

David Heath · Post by **David Heath** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:33 am

Hey Guys

Make sure the National ratings are off during some of those tests. Remember with these on the US breaks faster but also rally faster. The Germans break slower but also rally slower.

David.

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 7:24 am

Originally posted by krull:
Hmm I been play US in pbem games and ecept for 1 I get creame din 1 shot otr 2 from german tanks even Piv's. Plus my bazookas never hit. Althru i dont use alot airborne I buy some and may armored infantry does bettery wirth out alot artillary and infantry Germans just roll over the top. ALL i been able to do is stick shermans and wolverines out as bait to lure them into infantry assualt ranges. I been telling my oppanents that the US sucks. Althru I had one good game vs Packrat rest I jsut got murdered. And only reason I did ok vs Pack was i caught him in the open. AND artillaryed him to death. EXACT oppsite in pacfic for me US troops shoot 3 to 2 hexes away where my Japs cant see but 1 hex. Shermans immune to flamethowers close assults etc. Not to mention unstobale infantry A million shots and then move away etc.

Yes you really caught me with my pants down, but I hope my reserves have treated you to a bit more of a fight.

I and AmmoSgt just finished our reversed role game and it was a tie with my resverves not fully engaged yet. Gentleman this lady usally creams me. That either of us had the feel for what we were using is a given that we didn't. My armor losses can be blamed on my German Tiger tactic of take the high ground and go toe to toe, something the American armor shouldn't do as a rule. It was fun with out a doubt and a pleasure to be able to move infantry in a preplan with out it getting supressed beyond help. In a nut shell I could take Americans through an artillery barrage and come out the other side, the Germans would sit there and get chewed up. Do any recall my post about not using the auto rally? The reason for coming up with this was because Germans got stupid and only would rally to the point of being pinned, thus being there for the next barrage. I don't take the Germans over the hill any more.

The real reason for this post however is I don't want to come across here as a whiner. It's only concern for perhaps a finer tuning or at least a look at certain things. I have several slots open for any kind of tests that can be suggested and will be happy to take any side.

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PR
http://electricwar.tripod.com/

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 7:57 am

OK PackRat and i are going to play a test we are goint to use our regular league settings and play our regular side ..the stuff we are most familiar with but foing to try it with true troop cost and country training and national training whatever off... I think it will be helpful if some other concerned folks find opponnets and run a test game too and post here .. lets find out what the heck is going on ..
Warhorse i can't resist the urge to tease a little .. ok but right it may not be just tactics if i am wrong about the tactics thingy i am going to appologize and give everybody a rematch .. ARRRGGH guys i am just teasing when i am give folks hard time dang ...

anyway yes i am actually despite my teasing taking this serious and i am testing and checking
and this point thingy as a possible indicator that PackRat and i are working on is along the lines of the OOB cost v buy cost v point value in the game thingy that i tried to explain to you a month ago when i was telling you the points didn't make sense ..i got some posts on the OOB/TO&E board from way back .. and i still don't know exactly what the base experience morale levels would make the OOB editor cost as listed be the same as what you buy the unit for and then what the unit is worth in terms of game points ??? any info would help whats the Formula ??

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:05 am

Originally posted by David Heath:
Hey Guys

Make sure the National ratings are off during some of those tests. Remember with these on the US breaks faster but also rally faster. The Germans break slower but also rally slower.

David.

In the US case does this mean thay take higher supression for a shot than say the Germans would? Is not the faster rally self defeating? By this I mean if you're actually controling the unit and not the AI you're going to have more of a Japanese National rating by using the rally button between shots if needed. Ammo and I are setting up a battle now, what kind of notes are needed here?

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PR
http://electricwar.tripod.com/