Ratings of Chiang Kai-Shek

[ycwang]

Chiang Kai-Shek (BTW, misspelled in the game, not "Chek") has ratings of leadership 16 & inspiration 13. This is totally way out of line. Even though he may not be liked by many westerners, Chiang did win the civil war in China prior to WW2, which made him from a warlord to a national leader. He also led China to fight Japan since 1937 without the intervention of the U.S. until Pearl Harbor. His strategy to deal with the Japanese, mainly to "trade space for time," had also been proved a successful one. He might not be liked by the Communists, but he inspired many Chinese people to fight Japan during WW2. Chiang may not be the smartest general, but whoever gave him such low ratings were obviously biased.

[Bandkanon]

ORIGINAL: ycwang

Chiang Kai-Shek (BTW, misspelled in the game, not "Chek") has ratings of leadership 16 & inspiration 13. This is totally way out of line. Even though he may not be liked by many westerners, Chiang did win the civil war in China prior to WW2, which made him from a warlord to a national leader. He also led China to fight Japan since 1937 without the intervention of the U.S. until Pearl Harbor. His strategy to deal with the Japanese, mainly to "trade space for time," had also been proved a successful one. He might not be liked by the Communists, but he inspired many Chinese people to fight Japan during WW2. Chiang may not be the smartest general, but whoever gave him such low ratings were obviously biased.

ahahahahaha

what crack are hyou smoking!!! You must have been brainwashed by that KMT bullshit history...hahaha Chiang inspired the Chinese to fight...HAHAHAHA...all he did was sit around and get kicked around and fight the Communists...after the Xian Incident he still sat on his ass and and did crap to fight the Japanese. After the Americans came into the war all he did was request for equipment and hoard them to fight the communists later. The only real offensive takn by the KMT during thw war was in Burma and that was still a half assed attempt. Chiang was nothing but a hack. And on top of that he's a gangster with the Green Gang and he even extorted protection money from his own wife's family. It sucks that Dr. Sun Yat Sen's ideals of a united democratic China went down the toilet with Chiang.

[Lemurs!]

Um, everything you said is besides the point and rude. No matter what Chiang's character was, that has no effect on his abilities.

He was certainly no great general but i would probably rate him higher than Percival or even Wavell.

Mike

[kaleun]

Um, everything you said is besides the point and rude. No matter what Chiang's character was, that has no effect on his abilities.

He was certainly no great general but i would probably rate him higher than Percival or even Wavell.

Mike

Concur

[Bandkanon]

ok fine. Still CHiang was not a general in the operational sense. He was a political man first and foremost. His charisma got him to the topo but no way was he a military man.

[ycwang]

Because Chiang was such a controversial person in the Chinese history, no wonder some people would not want to discuss this topic with a rational manner.

My point is: even though he was not a great general, he was still not THAT bad at the operational level. He was graduated from, or at least stuided in, a Japanese military school. He beat all the warlords and won the civil war in China prior to WW2. Even though the Communists didn't like him, the KMT military and a major portion of Chinese people were still inspired by him to fight the Japanese "during" the WW2. The fact that he was defeated by the Communists after WW2 had nothing to do with the ratings in this game because his loss was not due to bad military strategies. So at the operational level, he should not be ranked as the worst geneal of all in the game. I repeat, whoever gave him such ratings is obviously biased.

BTW, where do the ratings of a leader, either in the army, navy or air force, come from? I really wonder how the WitP people made their decisions about most of the less known military leaders in this game.

[ycwang]

sorry, bad editing!

[MengCiao]

ORIGINAL: ycwang

Because Chiang was such a controversial person in the Chinese history, no wonder some people would not want to discuss this topic with a rational manner.

My point is: even though he was not a great general, he was still not THAT bad at the operational level. He was graduated from, or at least stuided in, a Japanese military school. He beat all the warlords and won the civil war in China prior to WW2. Even though the Communists didn't like him, the KMT military and a major portion of Chinese people were still inspired by him to fight the Japanese "during" the WW2. The fact that he was defeated by the Communists after WW2 had nothing to do with the ratings in this game because his loss was not due to bad military strategies. So at the operational level, he should not be ranked as the worst geneal of all in the game. I repeat, whoever gave him such ratings is obviously biased.

BTW, where do the ratings of a leader, either in the army, navy or air force, come from? I really wonder how the WitP people made their decisions about most of the less known military leaders in this game.

In game terms, CKS is supposed to be a big problem, as he was historically for the allies. Most allied commanders who worked with him found him worse than useless and
at least his ratings aren't negative....so perhaps that's a plus.

I don't think ratings necessarily reflect a person's mental abilities so much as their actual contributions to their side's war effort. Again,
at least CKS is in positive territory, which is something of a miracle.

[timtom]

Knowing virtually nothing about the war in China won't stop me from commenting: It seems to me that the KMT strategy was spot on. Japan is doomed no matter what the Chinese do. No point in undermining you own post-war position just to speed up the inevitable defeat of Japan. Let the Amricans fight the Japanese, sucker them for as much material as material as possible, and take the long view of things.

[MengCiao]

ORIGINAL: timtom

Knowing virtually nothing about the war in China won't stop me from commenting: It seems to me that the KMT strategy was spot on. Japan is doomed no matter what the Chinese do. No point in undermining you own post-war position just to speed up the inevitable defeat of Japan. Let the Amricans fight the Japanese, sucker them for as much material as material as possible, and take the long view of things.

If the KMT strategy was spot on, it is odd that they were driven out of China within 4 years of the end of the war. It seems more reasonable to see them as short-sighted opportunists led by a perfectly professional stuffed shirt whose lucrative business it was to annoy his allies and stay out of the way of his enemies.
Again, it seems miraculous to me that CKS has non-negative ratings.

[PJJ]

It's true that CKS was no Napoleon, but I too think that his ratings are a bit too low. Maybe they should be around 20-30, 'cause I don't think he war WORSE than Gen. Percival, the Worst British General Ever.

Mao has much higher ratings, as he should have - though he mostly specialized in guerrilla warfare, unlike CKS who was a more traditional commander.

[ycwang]

ORIGINAL: MengCiao

If the KMT strategy was spot on, it is odd that they were driven out of China within 4 years of the end of the war. It seems more reasonable to see them as short-sighted opportunists led by a perfectly professional stuffed shirt whose lucrative business it was to annoy his allies and stay out of the way of his enemies.

Well, Chiang was not driven out of China, he and the KMT government retreated to Chungking, which is still part of the Chinese territory. That he won the civil war prior to WW2 was a proof that he could fight at the operational level. There is no way that his ratings are so low, compared to other generals.

[kaleun]

Well, Chiang was not driven out of China, he and the KMT government retreated to Chungking, which is still part of the Chinese territory. That he won the civil war prior to WW2 was a proof that he could fight at the operational level. There is no way that his ratings are so low, compared to other generals.

He did predict that "The japanese were an infection that would heal, the Communists are a cancer" He saw the Communists as the real threat, and IMHO he was right.
Now his ratings should reflect his activities during the war, so they are probably right on.

[MengCiao]

ORIGINAL: kaleun

Well, Chiang was not driven out of China, he and the KMT government retreated to Chungking, which is still part of the Chinese territory. That he won the civil war prior to WW2 was a proof that he could fight at the operational level. There is no way that his ratings are so low, compared to other generals.

He did predict that "The japanese were an infection that would heal, the Communists are a cancer" He saw the Communists as the real threat, and IMHO he was right.
Now his ratings should reflect his activities during the war, so they are probably right on.

Right, since CKS obviously was not particularly interested in fighting the Japanese and the game is about fighting the Japanese, it is reasonable that his ratings in this game should be lower than those of anyone who had any interest in fighting the Japanese -- even those of any infinitely incompetent Britiish Officer. Even more so since he was right about the Japanese and the Communists.

[mavraam]

Even though he may not be liked by many westerners

I'm confused by that. Didn't he fight for a democratic china against communism? Why wouldn't westerners like him?

[kaleun]

I'm confused by that. Didn't he fight for a democratic china against communism? Why wouldn't westerners like him?

The communists (Stalin, Mao) were the west's allies[X(] in this war!

"I am not a communist, but if Hitler invaded Hell, I would make a good representation for the Devil in the House of Commons" Winston Churchill.

PS: Mao's China was and is not democratic. Chang's was not, but is now.

[MengCiao]

ORIGINAL: kaleun

I'm confused by that. Didn't he fight for a democratic china against communism? Why wouldn't westerners like him?

The communists (Stalin, Mao) were the west's allies[X(] in this war!

"I am not a communist, but if Hitler invaded Hell, I would make a good representation for the Devil in the House of Commons" Winston Churchill.

PS: Mao's China was and is not democratic. Chang's was not, but is now.

And hence CK-S's ratings: he is more interested in attacking his Allies than his enemies. It's a miracle his ratings are not negative.

[Lemurs!]

Chiang was never Democratic at all; he was just the strongest warlord. Sun-yat Sen was probably China's best hope.

Mao and the Communists may not have been perfect but they genuinely cared about the people. The KMT never gave a damn.
Now, Deng Xiaoping was a murderous pig.
And Taiwan is only a little more democratic than China.

Mike

[kaleun]

And Taiwan is only a little more democratic than China.

They do have elections and political parties[8D]

[freeboy]

I was surprised that anyone would defend Chang.. he is report to have divertad vast amounts of aid to himself an aids via eye witnesses... it would be too hard to make two seperate chinas... and if your going to be that anal we would need ijn and ija restrictions on cooperation which do not exist...