How useful are early German 37mm HE rounds?

Monte · Post by **Monte** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 11:11 am

I am a bit curious about this particular weapon in 6.1. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that there is anything wrong about how these work in the game.

But I would like to learn a bit of tactics from the others. And maybe to hear a bit of the history, or to learn something about the German doctrine in these days.

I started my campaign with armor component consisting of two German CS platoons (Mark IVc's) and a horde(two full elite companies, to be precise) of SdKfzs 211 and two SPAA platoons. Works nice in initial Poland engagements, I have a lot of room for upgrades further on. Notice SPWaW newbie error: to much armor.

Well, I survived Poland, went to France and started upgrading my 211 armored cars to PzIIIE's. All nice and fine, except I have only two motorized companies of infantry (soon to become armored engineers), and I really, really have to use armor to deal with all that infantry sent my way. And infantry, particularly dug-in type is tough in 6.1. Lots of support points spent on various forms of recce units.

So I finally see where enemy infantry is. Here comes artillery barrage and my panzers close in to deliver suppression from 6-7 hexes away.

I quickly learned that I am worse of with 37mm HE rounds than firing three machine-guns mounted on PzIIIE’s. PzIVc 75 mm guns work just fine (so I tend to keep my mark IVs a little bit back), but 37 mm HE is almost useless. This is not old SP where you can pump 37 mm HE rounds from 10 hexes away and suppress or rout entrenched infantry.

I thought that early British tank design flow was an absence of HE rounds. But how on Earth did Germans benefit from these HE rounds on small caliber guns? Yes, I deliver suppression when I fire them, but it seems to be to little to do any real damage.

The only use I can come up with is the situation where hidden AT gun suddenly opens on one of my tanks. Other tanks with LOS to that AT gun fire in turn and my poor guy (assuming it survived initial engagement) has some chance of escaping from the trap. Heavily suppressed, of course. Probably my tanks fire HE rounds on enemy trucks, too. But you don’t see allied trucks all that often in early years.

How do you guys use your PzIIIE, Pz38, Pz35 HE rounds? Does anybody know what sort of suppression points these rounds deliver on entrenched infantry?

British heavy infantry entrenched in the desert is a nightmare. Heavily armed, difficult to spot, ignorant to 37 mm HE rounds, quick to break LOS and easy to lose in the dust after artillery barrage… Ugly work for Africa Corps. And the reason why I am still waiting with MC purchase

. Looks extremely difficult, and I am not a pro.

[ July 15, 2001: Message edited by: Monte ]

Reg · Post by **Reg** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 11:35 am

Originally posted by Monte:
Ugly work for Africa Corps. And the reason why I am still waiting with MC purchase . Looks extremely difficult, and I am not a pro.

Don't wait too long, as they are going out of production soon and you'll miss out on the opportunity to get one!!

http://www.matrixgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=006237

Reg.

Monte · Post by **Monte** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 12:09 pm

Thanks for the heads up, Reg.

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 3:41 pm

Didn't the Afrika Korps also find out the hard way that 37mm HE weren't enough?

just thinking... :rolleyes:

rcread · Post by **rcread** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 11:22 pm

The Germans tankers didn't use their 37mm against infantry, because it was so ineffective. As for AT guns, well, that was what the PzIV was for. This does, of course, seem silly to us now, but that was the thinking at the beginning of the war. The only reason they had HE was because all German guns were multi-purpose, and it did do the trick against soft-skinned vehicles.
I think the game uses AP against trucks, though. At least older versions did.

Monte · Post by **Monte** » Sun Jul 15, 2001 11:53 pm

Didn't the Afrika Korps also find out the hard way that 37mm HE weren't enough?

Belisarius, I don't know about the Afrika Korps in real life, but my GE troops learned that lesson long before that. In Poland. By the time they've moved to France and Low Countries, nobody cares about 37mm HE anymore

Cracker, thanks for your comment, it really helps. If I read you correctly, you do agree that these HE rounds are, more or less, useless.

My problem with 37mm HE model in this game is that I don't know how to get rid of them when it comes to the op-fire. If I end the previous turn with my main gun disabled (in order to use only machine guns), I'm helpless against any enemy tank fire. If I leave the main gun enabled, tank fires HE rounds on infantry...

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:19 am

USe "Opfire confirm" to disapprocve of teh AI's attempts to fire HE at infantry and save the shots for enemy tanks.

Monte · Post by **Monte** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:19 am

I lost you, Paul.

I am playing with "Op Fire confirm" option turned on, but (and I just double-checked my manual and tried it in the game) I can't see how can one disable main gun and fire only machine guns in op-fire?

Is there some hidden command not explained in the manual? I tried hitting "C", and it does not work in op-fire menu...

Zeromus · Post by **Zeromus** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 8:56 am

He meant that you shouldn't fire your tanks at infantry at all.

- Z

Bonzo · Post by **Bonzo** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 10:09 am

Save your tank fire for appropriate targets of oportunity & use your supporting infantry & machineguns to Opfire attacking infantry.

Monte · Post by **Monte** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 10:39 am

GE tanks should not op-fire on enemy infantry? Wow...

Germans usually deal with lots of enemy infantry. Giving up tank op-fire against infantry... sounds radical to me.

I got impresion that the game engine allows only two op-fires on enemy unit that moves one hex. If your tanks are mixed with infantry... you lose your chance to op-fire on that moving enemy squad.

Then again, you guys know what you're speaking about, and I should probably shut my mouth now. Time to try to use what I've learned so far.

Thanks to all.

Reg · Post by **Reg** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 11:48 am

Originally posted by Monte:
I lost you, Paul.

I am playing with "Op Fire confirm" option turned on, but (and I just double-checked my manual and tried it in the game) I can't see how can one disable main gun and fire only machine guns in op-fire?

Is there some hidden command not explained in the manual? I tried hitting "C", and it does not work in op-fire menu...

Right click on the unit to bring up the unit information screen and then left click on the green weapon name and the colour should change to red. The weapon is now disabled.

The danger in this is that if an enemy tank appears you cannot turn your main gun back on until it is your turn again. However it is a useful way of firing all three machine guns at infantry and save your main gun ammunition. Don't forget to turn it back on again at the end of the turn (left click on it again).

Reg.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 11:52 am

Monte I don't think anybody meant "never fire a german tank at infantry

the AI moves in stages cycling thru the units several times ..and you usually have more MG shots than main gun shots ... just say no to the infantry target ,if you think armor type targets will be presenting itself a bit later, engage the armor with opfire when it presents itself so long as you have main gun shots .. then fire your remaining MG fire at the infantry once you no longer have main gun shots ... use any special opfire as you must to survive after that ...
remember that your coax has a higher HE kill than most 37mm and most tanks don't fire the Coax beyond 6 hexes if the main gun still has shots, so let the infantry get in about 5 hexes before you opfire at them ... then even if you still have main gun shots you will get both the Main and the MG and the MG will also be more effective ...
Always two parts to any fire fight ..killing the other guy , and staying alive, if you can soak off the other guys MG fire especially HMG fire with a Tank opfiring that has little chance of being hurt then your supporting infantry benefits from not facing unsuppressed return opfire when they opfire as the infantry gets closer ... you can also simplify you whole opfire situation by setting the ranges at which you different units will start asking to opfire .. different units have different ranges when they become more effective and regardless of the range you set , if they come under fire by an enemy units within your units range they generally get a chance to opfire in return ..any suppresion slows and possibly stops enemy infantry ..and that alone can be useful in seperateing the enemy infantry from the enemy armor ... and any armor unsuported by infantry is much easier to kill and is less likely to spot unspoted units ... something to think about ..also remember that even MG fire can cause armor to button up .. easiest way to kill a tank is to seperate it from it's infantry support, then button it up, then let the AI drive it blind and unsupported up on an engineer squad ...boom
If you wish to disable the main gun for opfire, you have to do it before you end your turn .. right click on the unit and that will open the unit info screen , anything printed in green on that screen is adjustable in one way or another .. for the weapons , you just click on the one you do not wish to fire .. the letters will turn red indicating that it will not fire .. you can turn any weapon off and back on as often as you like as long as it is still your turn ..it's risky to turn off that main gun in case the AI has armor you didn't know was coming , because you can not turn it back on during the AI's turn ..only during your turn .. but experiment ..you can also set the units opfire range in the same way from the same screen, also set stance ect

[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

Mai Thai · Post by **Mai Thai** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:19 pm

To monte:
Welcome aboard,
as you know the PzKfw IIIE main gun is not a good gun against both infantry and enemy armor. I suggest you to use PzKpfw II and PzKpfw I against enemy infantry, their guns are better for this kind of job and at least they are a bit more protected against inf. return fire if you leave them at least 5 hexes far.
Remember to not leave your panzer without inf. covering them and against enemy armor and inf. the only effective weapon is the 88mm Flak, so don't forget to buy some in your core force.
bye

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 4:40 pm

The 37mm should be good (as in suppression) against crewed weapons, MGs, Mortars, Inf Guns, and AT Guns (slugging matches between tanks and AT Guns is not a good idea).

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 5:31 pm

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
... most tanks don't fire the Coax beyond 6 hexes if the main gun still has shots, so let the infantry get in about 5 hexes before you opfire at them ... then even if you still have main gun shots you will get both the Main and the MG and the MG will also be more effective ...
[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

Monte,

Most of what AmmoSgt says is good advice but watch out here, this statement is misleading. The tank will only fire the coax MG when the main gun has shots left --IF-- it passes a die roll. Only the best crews seem to be able to do this. So be warned; your AFV will probable rarely fire the coax MG and the main gun in the same turn. As you've noted, firing all MG is the best way to take care of the infantry.

But also remember, the AI loves to soak off your AFV shots by dancing infantry in front of your tanks! Don't fall for it - AFV's should opfire at the infantry only as a last resort - save your ammo for the tanks which will move up last. You'll get plenty of chances to shoot the AVF guns at the infantry during the direct fire phase. Why? Because you've used your infantry rifles to "fix" (ie, pin down) the enemy infantry so that they are sitting ducks out in the open for your AFV's and mg in direct fire.

Tommy

[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: Tommy ]

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 6:25 pm

Its clear that MGs are more deadly than the 37mm HE round but here is a use for it. When I want to kill enemy infantry I want to use my infantry squad and separate MGs but I don't want them to receive effective return fire. I put my tanks behind my infanty. I use my main gun HE rounds, one or two rounds per enemy unit, to supress enemy infantry and lower the chances that they can return effective fire THEN I open up with my infantry.

As an aside, I put my flak units behind my tanks and use them first to supress any enemy ATGs or ATRs first, then fire tanks to supress infantry then infantry MGs to kill infantry.

Monte · Post by **Monte** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 11:21 pm

Reg at all,
My broken English is the cross of a sort here, but please read my postings on this topic once again. With all due respect, I know how to disable main gun and how to fire only MGs. It is the tendency to op-fire with HE rounds that I am trying to cope with. I might be newbie to the fine art of wargaming in SPWaW, but I am definitely not new to SP series. I owned all SSI titles from the start, and yesterday ordered my MC, thanks to Reg

.

Let me try to illustrate my point with a counter-example. Think of the British tanks (except Matilldas, they are class on their own) of that era. They have no HE, so they always op-fire at infantry using their MGs. If you start from the assumption that 37 mm HE round is useless, British concept of not having HE rounds on tanks is a benefit, not disadvantage. That was a perverse thought for me.

The discussion broadened, much to my liking, to the concept of MBT in early years in WWII, and what are the consequences of realistic modeling to the gameplay in 6.1.

It is my understanding that Germans used their PzIII-class primarily as a weapon of terror in the enemy rear, most useful after the resistance line is broken. In SPWaW, you constantly find yourself in the situation to actually break that resistance line, not to exploit the breakthrough.

With the realistic modeling of infantry, nobody dashes with his armor anymore. One can try

, but it is not very healthy.

For a guy who knew the original SP series as a "tankies game", I found myself in odd situation where I don't want early GE MBT's in my core force. CS Mark IVs, yes, even mark IIs are fine (due to rapid firing 20mm, as Mai Thai nicely pointed in his message), but not PzIIIs, Pz38s, Pz35s.

From what I see, people think of that tank class as an anti-tank platform. Bonzo writes:

Save your tank fire for appropriate targets of oportunity...

and first thing that crosses my mind is that "appropriate targets of opportunity" are all sorts of enemy vehicles. But Germans have their 88's as a supreme tank killing platform. With the cautious approach to fighting in 6.1, AT guns disadvantage that they can not fire in the same turn when disembarking from the transport is not all that important, anymore. Aggressive use of 88's becomes a tempting alternative to "MBT as a tank killer" concept.

PzIIIe has its limits as an anti-tank platform, we all know them. I tried to solicit opinions about how good this class is in an infantry support role. And that is where Larry Holt, pbear, AmmoSgt contributed. They have a use for 37mm HE (enemy MG fire is very nice point). Unfortunately, there is no numerical expression for this damage, and one can not expect guys from Matrix to answer every odd question about the engine and the vast array of weapons modeled in this game.

Are you guys also tempted to give up on PzIII class altogether and use other, specialized weapons instead? (Mark IVs for infantry support and to deal with tanks that don’t have cannon, 88’s for tank killing, etc.) I particularly like GE SPAAs for long range engagements against the ground targets. Precise weapon, highly mobile, lots of suppression against the infantry… and they come in handy if a flying kite

shows on the battlefield in those early years of WWII...

gators · Post by **gators** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 1:43 am

But wasn't the doctrine to avoid tank vs tank, if possible, and use dedicated ATGs to deal with enemy armor.

Monte · Post by **Monte** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 2:30 am

freyburg,

That piece of military history is a bit unclear to me, and I will say a couple of words just to provoke somebody to teach me a lesson

. Who knows, it might be useful to others, as well. Most of the tanks in WWII felt victim to ATGs, air power and infantry, no doubt about that.

But these are the early years of WWII, US Army is still out of the game. From what I know, USA was a single major nation that had a strong military doctrine prohibiting tanks fighting other tanks, if anyhow possible.

Although I am not sure about the official doctrine, some conclusions can be drawn from characteristics of the equipment found on the battlefield.

The most obvious example would be British. No HE rounds, only AP for the main gun. I would argue that a nation fielding such tanks is highly unlikely candidate for a strong believer in "avoid tank vs. tank battles at all cost" doctrine.

Germans with their blitz-krieg tactics and emphasis on the rapid armor advance into the enemy rear are also questionable. If you trust forward with panzers, your ATGs can not keep up with the dynamics of the armored breakthrough. Latter in the war they did develop "tank killer" tanks, but it is unclear to me if their reliance on 88's in early years was something that was adopted from experience, or was a part of their doctrine about the tank use.