Speedy vs Swift AAR - Bombing the Reich

Eagle Day to Bombing of the Reich is a improved and enhanced edition of Talonsoft's older Battle of Britain and Bombing the Reich. This updated version represents the best simulation of the air war over Britain and the strategic bombing campaign over Europe that has ever been made.

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Speedysteve
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Speedy vs Swift AAR - Bombing the Reich

Post by Speedysteve »

Hi all,

I thought i'd post an AAR on my battle versus swift which has been going on for over a year now (maybe more, swift?)

A little background first off.

This is a 43 Campaign using JC's EXE and OB/OA.

I'm the Allies and swift is controlling the Axis.

There are a few houserules but not many (e.g. no restrictions on attacking Allied planes en masse, what groups can be upgraded to, BC can bomb whatecver it wants at night. Although I tend to be historical here etc). The houserules we have:

No attacks on recon
Limited R & R for Axis player
With mandatory Avalanche and Overlord the Allies can also attack any industry in the specified country as well.

------------------

I decided as the Allies to go for something different this time! I normally go for Chemicals/Rubber or Ball Bearings but I decided to go for Aluminium for starters. I must say i'm not too happy with the results so far. Below is a screenshot of the target list and the damage caused from my side. Apparently some effect is being caused on Axis plane production but the truth is unknown.

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RE: Speedy vs Swift AAR - Bombing the Reich

Post by Greyshaft »

Great! Forgive my simple-minded questions but I've never played BTR. Do U-Boat/V-1/Avalanche/Overlord targets affect German production in any way?
/Greyshaft
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wernerpruckner
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RE: Speedy vs Swift AAR - Bombing the Reich

Post by wernerpruckner »

Limited R&D for me [:(]

I still use lots of Bf109G-6, but I use them more or less only as distraction for his escorts ( he saw that last turn [:D] )


I know how much losses I can take in BTR, so I tend to play slaughterhouse turns often. In this game a 1:1 ratio vs 8th AF is just fine, because of the usage of lots of obsolete A/C ( Bf109G-6, G6/R6, Fw190A8/R8 and all the Zerstörer types ).

With my going for bombers and hit them hard, Stevens accuracy goes down - even if he does not know that [:'(]
Because what he sees isn´t always what he really gets.
He is mostly flying high lvl recce - they are not as accurate as low lvl recces, but his losses are much lower.


Werner

PS:
Stevieboy is only attacking in excellent weather, and so my boys get lots of resting turns [:'(]
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RE: Speedy vs Swift AAR - Bombing the Reich

Post by wernerpruckner »

Greyshaft,

AVALANCHE, OVERLORD, VSITES, UPENS are mandatory ( political) targets.
Sometimes some of the Allied commands get the order to attack those sites ( like in real life to stop the threat of the subs of the Vweapons or as preparation for Invasions) - how long those periods are depends on what you do ( hitting Ufacs hard, and you´ll never get UPEN mandatory....)

for some of the Avalanche and Overlord targets ( they cositist of a mix of tactical targets Railroads, Radar, A/F, OILS and troops )you get some score and you also maybe advance an invasion or a breakthrough.

For Vsites and Upes you don´t.

VFAC and UFAC are on the otherhand very nice targets ( some of those sites are really nice and big9 but usually loaded with AA.


Werner
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5th February 1944

Post by Speedysteve »

What with 44 starting the Tacticals are softening up France for the upcoming invasion.

In January the XVth was also orderd to support the Anzio landings by bombing Italy.

The 8th has been free though and now the XVth was on 5th February 1944.

----------------

Clear skies were reported across most of Europe and the men had been resting for a couple of days now.

A 'maximum effort' day was required by myself.

The 8th would set out at 9.00 targetting an Aluminium processing plant deep within Germany. The target, known as Duerener Waren, is located roughly halfway between Berlin and Rostock.

A force of B17's led by a pathfinder section took off on time with no major hiccups. The force totalled 195 B17's. The entire 8th FC was scheduled to fly escort for the boys all the way to and from the target. In total 613 escorts flew to protect the big birds (1/3 P51B's, 1/3 P47D's, 1/3 P38L's Mustang III's).

Enemy resistance was expected to be tough since many planes and skilled pilots are still in service with the Luftwaffe.

The first escorts joined the formation on schedule as they crossed the Dutch border. As predicted the enemy sent up the full fighter force on station in Germany. The combat was bloody and intense and lasted for hours. The enemy concentrated on the bombers, clearly trying to prevent them from unloading their deadly cargo over Waren........

Come late afternoon all of the 8th was back on airfields across England and the debrief began! The toll on bombers was horrific. Out of the force of 195 B17's that took off 106 were shot down [X(]. The escorts faired well though and only lost 27 planes. In return they had mauled the attackers shooting down an estimated 180 enemy fighters of types ranging from 109's, 190's, 410's, 210's and JU88's. Recon photos of Waren show the site as being smashed to an estimated 90% damage.

A heavy toll but war is dirty.

---------------

Meanwhile whilst the 8th was crossing the Dutch border..........

The XVth was also on a maximum effort raid targetting the large Aluminium production site called Wieland which is near Ulm in southern Germany.

For this mission 320 B24's flew with orders to bomb the Aluminium plant, the nearby Leipheim Fighter production plant and the Railways at Gunzburg. They were escorted by 336 fighters, 80% of which are the long legged P38L's.

This force met no resistance across the Adriatic. The first enemy fighters appeared near Venice. Although the numbers of planes involved was less than the 8th's sector the combat was no less bloody involving the typical Axis flyboys - 109's, 190's, 210's and JU88's. Some pro-Axis Italian flyboys also joined the show - G55's, MC205's.

These guys also focussed on the bombers but were never allowed to decimate the formations to a large extent.

Bombs were released over all targets from 24,000 feet but only significant damage was reported on the AFAC (wiped out) and the Gunzburg railyards (a smoking wreck). The main target - Wieland was only moderately hit!

Losses over Italy and Southern Germany from this raid ammounted to - 11 Fighters, 56 Bombers and a reported 90 enemy fighters.

--------------

Whilst the main events were going on Tacticals from both England and Italy pounded railyards, airfields, oil sites and AFACs around Paris, Rome, Turin and Pisa. Most sites were only moderately damaged except some railyards in Paris. Losses in these raids also occured mainly due to flak but also due to a few local fighter interceptions.

Over France 37 tactical bombers and escorts were lost to 31 enemy for example.

---------------

At night time the huge Bomber Command armada played it's part in delivering tonnes and tonnes of high explosives over Hannover and Brunswick in central Germany. The scale of the raids is impressive -

Hannover - hit by 900 Lancasters - 23 lost to fighters and flak
Brunswick - hit by 560 Halifaxes - 9 lost

Both targets were left burning heavily.......

205 group based in Italy also joined the fray by bombing the crucial town of Graz in Austria. Trying to get Swift [:D]

--------------------

The screenshot says it all with regard to losses and what can be achieved in BTR.....

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RE: 5th February 1944

Post by HMSWarspite »

Mind if I hijack your thread with an AAR of my own? A game I have been playing with Thierry (not seen him on either JC or here, but has lurked I believe). The game has been going for over a year (not sure when we started it, but turn 72 was July last year). We have just done turn 193, 25th Feb 1944. I am allies in this game, and it is the stock OB. We have another game on latest OB, with me playing Ge (will give you a turn on that sometime). Meanwhile on to the day:

The weather is predicted to be clear for the first time in a week, and Air HQs (me!) order a maximum effort for both 8th AF and Bomber Command, with full support from 2TAF, and 9th AF. Unfortunately Churchill steps in and orders V site attacks for both the latter, even though I have all but one out of action! (Note to self - time to nail the V weapon factories, been neglecting them of late!). I invoke the cheat, and after a raid to the one operational Vsite (operational is an approximation, it is 36% according to recent recce!), I release the rest of the tactical AF to support the heavies.

The day plan is for 228 B17s to raid the Aluminium works south of Hannover ((Vereinte Deutsche), which is the largest on the map, and annoyingly functional (despite several attempts to close it earlier). A secondary raid is to the Bussing Nag engine works to the east of the city with 200 further B17. The diversion plan is 2 fold. Both the above 2 raids pass to the north of the Ruhr, together to the IP, staggered by 1000ft (c28000 base alt). A further 235 B17s run parallel to this raid, but further north, jink south, and then raid targets in the Hamburg area. Finally, 260 B24s head across the north sea (staying offshore) and then raid the power plant at Neuhof (just SW of Hamburg). Numerous medium bombers raid targets in Belgium and Holland to support this lot. There are no fighter sweeps planned (Fighter Command is flying escort for 8th AF, using the cheat, mostly as cover for penetration to the Dutch boarder, and withdrawl cover). The deep cover is mostly 8AF P51 and 38 units (nearly all 8th fighters are P51 now).

Italy is raided with the usual miscellaneous raids, but 15th AF is sent to raid targets near Friedrichshafen.

The day dawns, and all raids set out as planned. Raids hit Genoa, and various airbases in northern Italy. This enables the 15th AF B24 raid to penetrate into Germany over the Alps unmolested (more of this later!). The 9th AF raid on the one remaining Vsite manages to knock it out, boming on time at 7:30 (post raid photos show 63% damage). Immediately after this, a B26 raid crosses the coast east of Dunkirk, and gets hit by one or more Fw190 JG. The 190s have a very poor day. Successive attacks give 1 B26 for no loss to the attackers, then 1 B26 for 5(!) FW190, 1 for 0, 2 for 4(!) and finally 0 for 2, giving 11 FW shot down, for 5 bombers - a very good effort by the bombers. Then, to add to the LW woes, a 109 group gets hit by the escorting P38 (where were they earlier?). The bombers go on to ineffectually bomb their target (Solvay Chmical works - 23% damage, but I think it was almost that yesterday!).

The main 8th AF raids have by this point penetrated to a line of east of Arnhem. The escort for the northern B24 raid has not yet joined up, and at 7:52 the raid is hit by a group of Me 410 bomber destroyers. This causes some losses to to B24s. Fortunately before they can make a second pass, the escorts do arrive, and the ZG groups start a day they will probably best want to forget. The P51 groups cause most attackers to break off.

Next the attack passes to the southern B17 raids, which are still being escorted by Spit IXs of FC. The attacking FW190As do surprisingly well, and knock down several Spits. Things calm down, and the northern B24 diversion bombs the Power station knocking it out completely according to bomb photos. Almost simultaneously, more Me410s hit the northern B17 raid (unengaged up to now). This is a mistake, and they get very roughly treated by the escorting P38s. Sporadic fights continue on the run in to the targets, but all raids bomb on schedule, but with mixed results. The ALUM works only gets 43%, the engine works gets 5% , and the B17 diversion to the Hamburg area misses its (classified) primary target, but makes a good job of the rail yards at Harburg (61%).

Meanwhile, the 15th AF raid on Friedrichshafen is attacked north of the Alps by a mix of fighters including 190A8/R2, and losses occur on both sides. The bombers then fail to find both primary and secondary targets, and carry their bombs back to Italy! They bomb Bergamo rail yard, and La Spezia port (neither really needing their attention, and neither being hit hard).

Further sporadic raids for the afternoon do not do much.

The night raids consist of a 1000 bomber raid on Kassel, which is a small town east of the Ruhr that I haven't really been to yet. The raids are split into 2 waves, roughly 2 hours apart. The first wave is c400 a/c, and bombs just after moon rise at 20:00. Intruders are used in the bomber streams.

The raids penetrate without too much trouble, but the Mosquito pathfinders mark in open country well to the NW of the target. Fortunately the main force ignores this and bombs on target. There is some creep back, but most bombing is in the town. The second wave markers are just as bad as the first, but the main force cannot miss the fires from the first wave, and bombs well. Again there is creep back, but as the scond wave approach was 120 degrees around from the first, it devastates a different suburb. Bombing photos indicate 35% urban damage (7 sq miles totally destroyed).

A successful, but expensive day for both sides. Allied losses are 318, for 188 germans claimed. (Subsequent post war investigation will revise the German losses to 127, still a large blow to the LW). The Allied losses are high, but evenly spread which is important. Key losses are 22 Halifax, 34 Lancs (out of the 1000 bomber raid, or c 5%). US lose 80 B17s, and 64 B24a (expensive on less than 1000 a/c raids!). The LW loses 37 109s, 41 FW190, and 32 Me410 (which will hurt - told you they had a hard day). They also lost 10 night fighters, for zero allied NF losses.

I can't take losses like this every day, but I gained 2 industry points (Ind output down 1230), and did 3000 terror points (but didn't gain anything).


The war continues...
I have a cunning plan, My Lord
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wernerpruckner
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RE: 5th February 1944

Post by wernerpruckner »

Hi,
no problem with the hijack [:)]

I think that Thierry posted a few times as "th sfr" on JC´s board.

What is the score in your game ??

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RE: 5th February 1944

Post by HMSWarspite »

2:15:13

28118 Ind o/p, 133723 terror. (Stock OB, so losses pretty bad)
I have a cunning plan, My Lord
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wernerpruckner
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RE: 5th February 1944

Post by wernerpruckner »

in my few PBEMs as Allied CinC, I usually use ( maybe over-use ) BC in 1943.
Usually I get a Terror score between 25 and 30 till the end of 1943. [:)] This is mostly not only the work of BC, because I also use the other commands extensive for RR bombing.

The only problem with this strategy is probably when you play strict mandatory targeting. The areas repair up to 800 points/turn as soon you stop bombing them.

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RE: 5th February 1944

Post by HMSWarspite »

We have not got a house rule on Mand Tgts, but I am obeying it unless it is silly (as above - I know I haven't been suppressing V Fac, but all the sites bar one was down, and it was the only good weather for a week). The weather is down again (90% over Ge!).

I have been playing BC realistically - only ever using full Sds, (i.e. not one with lots of a/c down for repair), over quite a high morale (I am not running BC into the ground). At the current rate I will hit 75 in Jan-March 1945, but terror is accelerating as the force becomes more Lanc biased. A quick curve fit on my Terror score gives me a point ever 20 days over the game to date. Industrial damage faltered over the winter (went as low as 10 over new year, but was climbing until most of Feb was poor weather), now back to highest ever.
I have a cunning plan, My Lord
Speedysteve
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6th February 1944

Post by Speedysteve »

Hi all,

Further clear weather paved the way for further deep, heavy attacks against the Axis Aluminium industry.

The XVth after failing to hit the Wieland plant near Ulm once more returned there. This time it was the Forts go. 128 took off and 29 failed to return along with 11 escorts. Upto 50 enemy fighters were reported destroyed though in fierce air battles too and from the target. Once more the plant was NOT knocked out. Next time Gadget, next time [:D]

The VIIIth hit out at the large Aluminium plant near Ludwigshafen with strikes also planned on the marshalling yards and the huge Rubber complex. Enemy reaction was surprisingly stubborn after yesterdays heavy losses. Out of 392 bombers launched 54 failed to return along with 30 escorts. Upto enemy fighters were downed though. Heavy damage was reported on the Aluminium plant and the marshalling yards.

Good show boys. Heavy losses but a victory for the good guys.

--------------------------

The night was a different matter.

BC targeted Leipzig and the important city of Mereseburg.

LW NF's with newer and more advanced radar types locked onto several bombers and despite heroic efforts by the gunners 40 bombers were downed for 11 enemey NF's lost whilst landing under fire from Allied NF's.

Losses:

Allied: 164
Axis: 140
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thread hijack alert

Post by Nikademus »

In my war against Speedy....his cities are burning and his industries are grinding to a halt.

DEATH TO SPEEDY!



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RE: thread hijack alert

Post by Speedysteve »

[:D] Nik

Post the truth Goebbels [;)]
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RE: thread hijack alert

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: Speedy


Post the truth Goebbels [;)]

NEWSFLASH

BOMBED OUT BALLBEARINGS TERRORIZE COUNTRYSIDE!


The German Ministry of Health today announced a health hazzard warning in the vicinity and surrounding countryside of the Schweinfurt Ballbearings plant. Apparantly the streets and sidewalks are being innudated with loose rolling ball-bearings, causing massive numbers of head and groinal injuries for German citizens who are unfortunate to step on one of the slippery round metal balls. German hospitals and ambulance carriers are currently overloaded with paitents.

The escaped ballbearings appear to be connected to the recent complete destruction Schweinfurt's Premier BB' producing factory at the hands of gorgious looking Allied 4E bombers!

"it was like a stampede!" one unforunate citizen stated. " There ver all des round little metal balls rolling down the streets und sidewalks! I bumped my head flipping over after shtepping on von!"

Evidence of the devestation was confirmed by high flying Allied recon aircraft who's photos revealed a host of chakly lines drawn in the streets of the local village , all in the shape of variously sprawed human forms.

Der Fuherer had no comment at this time.

Speedysteve
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RE: thread hijack alert

Post by Speedysteve »

LOL Nik only just read this. You crack me up [:D]
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7th February 1944

Post by Speedysteve »

Fairly bad weather swept across Europe today so no Allied raids were present over Axis controlled Europe.

Instead it was a day of resting for the aircrew who also had a chance to enjoy decent beer and women [;)]

The maintenance crews were hard at work repairing planes to an operational status and replacements poured into units that needed them....

Better news..............the 8th looks like to be a good day of weather [:)]
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8th February 1944

Post by Speedysteve »

Hi all,

The 8th took a day off Aluminium and attempted to hit Bunawerke Sckhopau Rubber plant and the nearby AFAC plant at Siebel.

The LW being the wimp it is did NOT attack on the inbound leg only on the outbound. The bombers all droppd bombs on que but results appear to poor across the board.

XVth went back to Weiland as it will do. NO enemy fighters wre found in the entire jpurney but the silly bombardiers missed the target.

--------------

BC - had a maximum effort night and the Hals blitzed Wilhemshaven and the Lancs Hamburg. Flak was intense over these 2 naval bases and losses were sustained (IIRC20+ bombers). Not 1 enemy NF flew though. WIMPS [:'(]

Here's the AAR raids screen

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RE: 8th February 1944

Post by Speedysteve »

Losses............

Bad weather tomorrow.

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