15cm SIG used for Indirect Fire?

[Dragoon 45]

I was going through some reference material and noticed that the Pz-1 based SP for the 15cm SIG had an elevation of 72 degrees. This got me thinking and I went back and checked the rest of the German SP's that mounted the 15cm SIG and all that I had reference data on, had at least 70 degrees of elevation for the main gun. I could not find data on the 15cm SIG-33 as far as how much elevation the carriage had, but the elevation data on the SP's suggest that they were used for indirect fire. Normally a direct fire weapon would not have much over 20-25 degrees elevation for the gun.

Up to this point I always thought that both the 15cm SIG-33 and the SP variants armed with the 15cm SIG were used in the direct fire mode exclusively. The ability to elevate the tubes to high angles suggest they could be used in indirect fire like normal howitzers. If the SIG-33 was used in an indirect fire mode I would suspect a range comparable to that of the WW-I sFH-13 which I believe was a little bit over 9000 yards. I am basing this assumption on information that I had read that the SIG was developed from the WW-I howitzer of the same caliber.

I have seen very little information on how these guns were actually used in the war. Most video footage of the SP's in action show them engaging in a direct fire mode, but most of these films were produced for propaganda purposes. Does anyone have any information on these guns and how they were used?

[Fallschirmjager]

One of the biggest flaws in SPWAW is not being able to use tanks in indirect fire mode.
Towards the end of the war the Russian SU-76 had few uses as a direct fire weapon and entire batallions were used for quick mobile shortrange indirect artillery pieces.
As far as I know almost any tank could be used as a indirect fire gun and I have read references to the Birtish and Americans making use of this

[stevemk1a]

I've even read about the Jagdtigers of Pz.Jag.Abt. 653 being used as indirect artillery in the Hagenau Forest during Feb. 1945 at ranges of 20+ kilometers. I guess they must have used ramps or something to get sufficient elevation, but I can't imagine them being very accurate!

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

One of the biggest flaws in SPWAW is not being able to use tanks in indirect fire mode.
Towards the end of the war the Russian SU-76 had few uses as a direct fire weapon and entire batallions were used for quick mobile shortrange indirect artillery pieces.
As far as I know almost any tank could be used as a indirect fire gun and I have read references to the Birtish and Americans making use of this

Absolutely correct..In "quiet times". entire Bn's of M10's,etc, were used as indirect artillery in Italy and France,etc..

[Dragoon 45]

No argument with any of that. From reading a couple of histories of the US Tank Destroyers, their crews received training on indirect fire during their basic training.

But going back to the subject of the SIG's, I just thought it very odd that they had that much elevation on what was supposed to be a direct fire weaons system. I couldn't find much on the web about the SIG-33 except that the Germans classified it as a Howitzer in addition to being an infantry gun. Also according to one web site it had a muzzle loaded hollow charge bomb for use in the AT role, but it was fairly inaccurate. If they were used in the indirect fire mode, they would be a useful addition for the Germans in the game.

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

One of the biggest flaws in SPWAW is not being able to use tanks in indirect fire mode.
Towards the end of the war the Russian SU-76 had few uses as a direct fire weapon and entire batallions were used for quick mobile shortrange indirect artillery pieces.
As far as I know almost any tank could be used as a indirect fire gun and I have read references to the Birtish and Americans making use of this

Absolutely correct..In "quiet times". entire Bn's of M10's,etc, were used as indirect artillery in Italy and France,etc..

[m10bob]

Certainly not the first time the Sig 33 and its' capabilities have been discussed:

http://boards.avalonhill.com/archive/in ... -5630.html

[FlashfyreSP]

Short briefing on the 15cm sIG 33:
First issued in 1927, along with the 7.5cm IG 18. Conventional horizontal sliding-block breech, 2-wheel box-trail carriage with hydropneumatic recoil below the barrel. Gun trunnioned well to the rear to allow for high elevation; levels 0 to +73 degrees (some sources list +4 to +75 degrees). Combat weight: 3749lbs. Used 6 Charge levels for firing; ranges were: Charge 1 - 1475 meters, Charge 2 - 2125 meters, Charge 3 - 3000 meters, Charge 4 - 3750 meters, Charge 5 - 4375 meters, and Charge 6 - 4700 meters. Ammunition was separate-loading; 4 types of shells as follows: 15cm I Gr 33 - standard HE (18lbs filling), 15cm I Gr 38 Nb - newer HE (18lbs filling), 15cm I Gr 39 H1/A - standard hollow-charge (HEAT), 15cm Steilgranate 42 - a "demolition" type stick-bomb shell, it weighed almost 200lbs, was loaded into the muzzle with the fins outside, and a special propelling charge used to fire it up to 1000 meters. Used to clear barbed wire, demolish strongpoints, and clear minefields, but was not intended for anti-tank use.

15cm sIG33(Sf) auf Panzerkampfwagen I Ausf B - 38 converted PzKpfw I B tanks in Feb 1940. Turrets and superstructure removed, large box-shaped gun shield added. Mounted the 15cm sIG 33 on it's normal field carriage.

15cm sIG33 auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen II (Sf) - 12 produced in Nov/Dec 1941 by widening and lengthening a PzKpfw II B chassis to accomodate the same 15cm sIG 33 weapon; the weapon was lowered into the chassis, instead of being mounted on top as in the Pz I version, thus reducing its overall height. All 12 were shipped to North Africa, and all were destroyed there.

15cm sIG33 (Sf) auf Panzerkampfwagen 38(t) Ausf H (Sd Kfz 138/1) - 90 produced Feb-April 1943 by utilizing Pz 38(t) units returned from field service. Similar construction to the Pz I models, with turret and superstructure  removed, and a box-shield installed. The 15cm sIG 33 gun was mounted in a similar fashion. This unit also known as the Grille.

15cm sIG33/1 auf Selbstfahrlafette 38(t) (Sf) Ausf K (Sd Kfz 138/1) - 282 produced from April-June 1943 and from Oct 1943-Sep 1944. This model in many respects is identical to the Grille, except it used a newer chassis designed by BMM for all future self-propelled guns. No distinction was made between the two types, though, and both are referred to as Grilles. This was the last type of SP Gun model produced.

Sources: German Artillery of WWII, Ian Hogg; Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII, Chamberlain/Doyle.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Certainly not the first time the Sig 33 and its' capabilities have been discussed:

http://boards.avalonhill.com/archive/in ... -5630.html

discussed at length at the depot too.

[Don Doom]

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

Short briefing on the 15cm sIG 33:
First issued in 1927, along with the 7.5cm IG 18. Conventional horizontal sliding-block breech, 2-wheel box-trail carriage with hydropneumatic recoil below the barrel. Gun trunnioned well to the rear to allow for high elevation; levels 0 to +73 degrees (some sources list +4 to +75 degrees). Combat weight: 3749lbs. Used 6 Charge levels for firing; ranges were: Charge 1 - 1475 meters, Charge 2 - 2125 meters, Charge 3 - 3000 meters, Charge 4 - 3750 meters, Charge 5 - 4375 meters, and Charge 6 - 4700 meters. Ammunition was separate-loading; 4 types of shells as follows: 15cm I Gr 33 - standard HE (18lbs filling), 15cm I Gr 38 Nb - newer HE (18lbs filling), 15cm I Gr 39 H1/A - standard hollow-charge (HEAT), 15cm Steilgranate 42 - a "demolition" type stick-bomb shell, it weighed almost 200lbs, was loaded into the muzzle with the fins outside, and a special propelling charge used to fire it up to 1000 meters. Used to clear barbed wire, demolish strongpoints, and clear minefields, but was not intended for anti-tank use.

15cm sIG33(Sf) auf Panzerkampfwagen I Ausf B - 38 converted PzKpfw I B tanks in Feb 1940. Turrets and superstructure removed, large box-shaped gun shield added. Mounted the 15cm sIG 33 on it's normal field carriage.

15cm sIG33 auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen II (Sf) - 12 produced in Nov/Dec 1941 by widening and lengthening a PzKpfw II B chassis to accomodate the same 15cm sIG 33 weapon; the weapon was lowered into the chassis, instead of being mounted on top as in the Pz I version, thus reducing its overall height. All 12 were shipped to North Africa, and all were destroyed there.

15cm sIG33 (Sf) auf Panzerkampfwagen 38(t) Ausf H (Sd Kfz 138/1) - 90 produced Feb-April 1943 by utilizing Pz 38(t) units returned from field service. Similar construction to the Pz I models, with turret and superstructure  removed, and a box-shield installed. The 15cm sIG 33 gun was mounted in a similar fashion. This unit also known as the Grille.

15cm sIG33/1 auf Selbstfahrlafette 38(t) (Sf) Ausf K (Sd Kfz 138/1) - 282 produced from April-June 1943 and from Oct 1943-Sep 1944. This model in many respects is identical to the Grille, except it used a newer chassis designed by BMM for all future self-propelled guns. No distinction was made between the two types, though, and both are referred to as Grilles. This was the last type of SP Gun model produced.

Sources: German Artillery of WWII, Ian Hogg; Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII, Chamberlain/Doyle.

There is a fifth version also: Here is a short blurb from ww11vehicals:
150 Schwere Infanteriegeschütz 33/2 (Sf) auf Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer
Bison5:
6 converted and 24 produced.5 First models were available December 1944. Based on the Bergepanzer 38(t) chassis. Had additional raised superstructure installed with 150 mm sIG 33/2. Were issued to the schwere Infanteriegeschütz company in armored infantry regiments.

[Don Doom]

Here is one of the photo's I have of it.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Don Doom

Here is one of the photo's I have of it.

Gorgeous!..Looks like a Hetzer with a howitzer!!

[Don Doom]

yep it is.

[Dragoon 45]

I had most of that information on the SP versions, but lacked the info you provided on the ground mount. Thank You.

I am just curious if the SIG's were used in an indirect fire role. If they in fact were used in an indirect fire role then I would think maybe their attributes in the game need to be changed. But as I have no knowledge if they were so used, I don't know if changes are warranted or not. What it comes down to is how were the SIG's used in most instances?

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

Short briefing on the 15cm sIG 33:
First issued in 1927, along with the 7.5cm IG 18. Conventional horizontal sliding-block breech, 2-wheel box-trail carriage with hydropneumatic recoil below the barrel. Gun trunnioned well to the rear to allow for high elevation; levels 0 to +73 degrees (some sources list +4 to +75 degrees). Combat weight: 3749lbs. Used 6 Charge levels for firing; ranges were: Charge 1 - 1475 meters, Charge 2 - 2125 meters, Charge 3 - 3000 meters, Charge 4 - 3750 meters, Charge 5 - 4375 meters, and Charge 6 - 4700 meters. Ammunition was separate-loading; 4 types of shells as follows: 15cm I Gr 33 - standard HE (18lbs filling), 15cm I Gr 38 Nb - newer HE (18lbs filling), 15cm I Gr 39 H1/A - standard hollow-charge (HEAT), 15cm Steilgranate 42 - a "demolition" type stick-bomb shell, it weighed almost 200lbs, was loaded into the muzzle with the fins outside, and a special propelling charge used to fire it up to 1000 meters. Used to clear barbed wire, demolish strongpoints, and clear minefields, but was not intended for anti-tank use.

15cm sIG33(Sf) auf Panzerkampfwagen I Ausf B - 38 converted PzKpfw I B tanks in Feb 1940. Turrets and superstructure removed, large box-shaped gun shield added. Mounted the 15cm sIG 33 on it's normal field carriage.

15cm sIG33 auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen II (Sf) - 12 produced in Nov/Dec 1941 by widening and lengthening a PzKpfw II B chassis to accomodate the same 15cm sIG 33 weapon; the weapon was lowered into the chassis, instead of being mounted on top as in the Pz I version, thus reducing its overall height. All 12 were shipped to North Africa, and all were destroyed there.

15cm sIG33 (Sf) auf Panzerkampfwagen 38(t) Ausf H (Sd Kfz 138/1) - 90 produced Feb-April 1943 by utilizing Pz 38(t) units returned from field service. Similar construction to the Pz I models, with turret and superstructure  removed, and a box-shield installed. The 15cm sIG 33 gun was mounted in a similar fashion. This unit also known as the Grille.

15cm sIG33/1 auf Selbstfahrlafette 38(t) (Sf) Ausf K (Sd Kfz 138/1) - 282 produced from April-June 1943 and from Oct 1943-Sep 1944. This model in many respects is identical to the Grille, except it used a newer chassis designed by BMM for all future self-propelled guns. No distinction was made between the two types, though, and both are referred to as Grilles. This was the last type of SP Gun model produced.

Sources: German Artillery of WWII, Ian Hogg; Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII, Chamberlain/Doyle.

[FlashfyreSP]

Well, this debate has been ongoing at the Depot and other places for a while. The 15cm sIG33 gun was probably used to conduct some types of indirect fire; the key point, though, is what the game determines as indirect.

As it currently is modeled, indirect fire is fire that involves calling for a bombardment, through the use of the Bombardment screen. This fire is delayed; it does not have an effect until at least the end of the current turn, and usually not until the end of the opposing side's turn. Indirect fire must be plotted; it can fall anywhere within the firing unit's Range.

The following actions, however, are NOT indirect fire as the game models it:
1. Lobbing shells over obstructions during the unit's fire phase.
2. Firing into unseen hexes.
3. Conducting any indirect fire without using the Bombardment screen.

Here is the problem: the IG was not used with the typical communications set-up used by other dedicated long-range artillery pieces; it was primarily an Infantry Support weapon, and was not expected to need the complicated landlines and phone networks that were the norm for the 1940s era. Therefore it would not necessarily be part of the artillery comm net, and probably acted without the direction of any authority higher than the battalion commander. As such, we can't justify making it a 'Howitzer'-class weapon, which allows indirect fire, because it's ability to conduct such fire was limited in scope and not within the bounds of the current game structure.

[Dragoon 45]

Okay, I can live with that. I hadn't seen any of the other discussions. I was just curious to see if a capability for the Germans was being left out of the game.

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

Well, this debate has been ongoing at the Depot and other places for a while. The 15cm sIG33 gun was probably used to conduct some types of indirect fire; the key point, though, is what the game determines as indirect.

As it currently is modeled, indirect fire is fire that involves calling for a bombardment, through the use of the Bombardment screen. This fire is delayed; it does not have an effect until at least the end of the current turn, and usually not until the end of the opposing side's turn. Indirect fire must be plotted; it can fall anywhere within the firing unit's Range.

The following actions, however, are NOT indirect fire as the game models it:
1. Lobbing shells over obstructions during the unit's fire phase.
2. Firing into unseen hexes.
3. Conducting any indirect fire without using the Bombardment screen.

Here is the problem: the IG was not used with the typical communications set-up used by other dedicated long-range artillery pieces; it was primarily an Infantry Support weapon, and was not expected to need the complicated landlines and phone networks that were the norm for the 1940s era. Therefore it would not necessarily be part of the artillery comm net, and probably acted without the direction of any authority higher than the battalion commander. As such, we can't justify making it a 'Howitzer'-class weapon, which allows indirect fire, because it's ability to conduct such fire was limited in scope and not within the bounds of the current game structure.

[Riun T]

I seem to recall being able to use the priests that I got late in my marine camp as both onboard directfire and they also turned up as callable on the arrty screen for indirect?? besides the priest having way more main armourment ammo { what could the sig in the pic carry for onvehicle amunition?? maybe 6 complete charges??}
In my understanding this is just an infantry tank with a blunderbuss, you roll it up with the grunts to give disruptive fire to hardpoints on the line or concentrations of massing troops and equip. thats just a really neat compact little toasteroven of doom, imagine that coming down one of those tight european backallies AND YOUR IN THE BUILDING ON THE END. P.S. i don't think they would have used this version for battery fire because the smoke and heat under that little cowling would ruin your day after a couple of shots RT

[m10bob]

In my Osprey press book on "Sturmartillerie and Panzerjager", it sez the German army used "assault guns" in general as local support for the infantry, and while intended for direct fire, could be used in an indirect role if nothing else is available.
The book refers to Stugs mostly, but some of the guns/roles are similar to the Stugs.(To me, it would be no stranger than M10's being used for indirect fire.)
The book goes on to say the assault guns were best employed in a direct fire role, normally moving slightly in advance of infantry in the open, or right behind them in urban areas.(Here, a higher arcing gun might be employed against individual floors in taller buildings).
The guns were also very good when assigned to work with Pioneer units in clearing obstacles,(according to this book.)
Osprey book#34
BTW,good info on how the Stugs(in particular) were meant to be used in the AT role, freeing the tanks to move into the enemy rear.(Not disimiliar to the U.S. doctrine that American TD's were to fight tanks, leaving the Shermans to oppose enemy infantry.)

[264rifle]

IMHO, which Flash disagrees with, These guns should be used as SP howitzers.

While the Stug's could very well be used as direct fire, in your face, support vehicles I am not so sure about the 15cm units.

See books on German armoured vehicles and check out the sections on radio halftracks and artillery spotting vehicles. See also the armoured ammo carriers. See also the MK III 15cm and the famous Brummbear. See the obsevation vehicles assigned to Stug batteries[&:]Using open topped if not open backed vehicles in close combat settings is just asking to have them wiped out to no purpose. Some sources claim the last of the MK Is lasted until 1942 and about half of the MK II's were captured in a repair depot. Not the sort of loss rate one would associate with vehicles haveing 15-30mm of armour and rather exposed crews. With only 6 to a division if they are used for indirect fire they might cover several thousand meters of the line. used to "lead the troops" they would get wiped out in a New York minute.
See also the list of radios in the "Encyclopeda of German tanks of WWII" by Chamberlain and Doyle. Some of those tank radios were only good for ranges of under 10 kilometers.

Having a battery of hard hitting howitzers that could set up to fire in few minutes, fire a mission and then move out in just a few more minutes compared to the several hours that a towed battery would take was a tremendous advantage. One that does not show up in the game because ALL artillery unlimbers and hooks up again way, way too fast (game engine limit).

We have also gone over the "tank and Tank destoyer" artillery use before. Given the small size of most of our maps the armoured units firing could not shoot over an obsticale and keep their shells on the map. Unless you are playing on a map that has close to 200 hexes in length or width this idea should be shelved. Was it done? Yes, but at ranges a lot closer to max range of the gun and usually (if not always) as part of an hours long Corp size bombardment plan for a major offencive or while in static positions for days if not weeks. NOBODIES commo system was good enough in WWII for a forward observer to talk to any and all tank units in the neiborhood and call in indirect fire in a few minutes. Most if not all armies used different radio sets operating on different frequncies for Tank and artillery use. Or try talking to a tank using a field phone net.

[FlashfyreSP]

Speaking of radios:

The sIG33 auf Pz I Ausf B has no radio listed in Chamberlain/Doyle. Likely it used the Fu.16 set, a 10-watt transmitter/USW (ultra short-wave) receiver operating in the frequency range of 23000-24950 kilocycles, with a range of 4km (keyset)/2km (voice).

The sIG33 auf Fahrgestell Pz II (Sf) is listed as using the Fu. Spr.f. set, a transmitter/receiver operating in the frequency range of 19997.5-21472.5 kilocycles, with a range of 5km (stationary)/2km (moving). This was a voice-only set.

The sIG33 /1 auf Selbstfahrlafette 38(t) and the sIG33 (Sf) auf PzKpfw 38(t) both list the Fu.16 set as in the Pz I Ausf B above.

The Fu.16 was primarily found on artillery vehicles (assault guns and SP-IGs), while the Fu.Spr.f. was found mainly on armoured cars and armoured OP vehicles, as well as SP Artillery (like the Wespe and Hummel). It's use on the sIG33 Pz II unit is odd.

From this it would seem that these vehicles were not expected to be part of any long-range battery formations; their short-range (2km voice) radios meant they would be up close to the front lines, especially if there were atmospheric or terain problems that further limited their radio range.

Thus, they don't quite fit the game's Indirect Fire model; only one of them migt, the sIG33 auf Pz II, as it used the same radio set as the Wespe and Hummel.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: 264rifle

IMHO, which Flash disagrees with, These guns should be used as SP howitzers.

While the Stug's could very well be used as direct fire, in your face, support vehicles I am not so sure about the 15cm units.

See books on German armoured vehicles and check out the sections on radio halftracks and artillery spotting vehicles. See also the armoured ammo carriers. See also the MK III 15cm and the famous Brummbear. See the obsevation vehicles assigned to Stug batteries[&:]Using open topped if not open backed vehicles in close combat settings is just asking to have them wiped out to no purpose. Some sources claim the last of the MK Is lasted until 1942 and about half of the MK II's were captured in a repair depot. Not the sort of loss rate one would associate with vehicles haveing 15-30mm of armour and rather exposed crews. With only 6 to a division if they are used for indirect fire they might cover several thousand meters of the line. used to "lead the troops" they would get wiped out in a New York minute.
See also the list of radios in the "Encyclopeda of German tanks of WWII" by Chamberlain and Doyle. Some of those tank radios were only good for ranges of under 10 kilometers.

Having a battery of hard hitting howitzers that could set up to fire in few minutes, fire a mission and then move out in just a few more minutes compared to the several hours that a towed battery would take was a tremendous advantage. One that does not show up in the game because ALL artillery unlimbers and hooks up again way, way too fast (game engine limit).

We have also gone over the "tank and Tank destoyer" artillery use before. Given the small size of most of our maps the armoured units firing could not shoot over an obsticale and keep their shells on the map. Unless you are playing on a map that has close to 200 hexes in length or width this idea should be shelved. Was it done? Yes, but at ranges a lot closer to max range of the gun and usually (if not always) as part of an hours long Corp size bombardment plan for a major offencive or while in static positions for days if not weeks. NOBODIES commo system was good enough in WWII for a forward observer to talk to any and all tank units in the neiborhood and call in indirect fire in a few minutes. Most if not all armies used different radio sets operating on different frequncies for Tank and artillery use. Or try talking to a tank using a field phone net.

From this, you seem to think SP guns were not used (or effective?) at direct fire, (if I am reading your comments correctly)
I have films of the Sig 33 being used in urban environment, for that very purpose, advancing with infantry.
The city of AAchen's German military commander was rooted out of a basement with his personal entourage when an American SP 155 was used to "persuade" him, by fire, which he stated was "unfair and barbaric".(From Ambrose' "CITIZEN SOLDIERS")
Belton Coopers' book "DEATH TRAPS" also mentions SP guns being used similarly.