Poor Russians. Balance in 3.101

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Thu Nov 01, 2001 8:01 pm

I am just about to lose a game as Russian despite having concentrate almost wholly on repeated layers of ever deeper and deeper defence.
My feeling is the odds are stacked against Russia in this version and that it is almost impossible to survive, let alone win, as Russian.
Does anyone else agree with this? Has anyone won as Russian?
Are their any plans for a 3.2 version of Wir which gives the Russians an even chance?

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Thu Nov 01, 2001 8:15 pm

Originally posted by Matthew Buttsworth:
I am just about to lose a game as Russian despite having concentrate almost wholly on repeated layers of ever deeper and deeper defence.
My feeling is the odds are stacked against Russia in this version and that it is almost impossible to survive, let alone win, as Russian.
Does anyone else agree with this? Has anyone won as Russian?
Are their any plans for a 3.2 version of Wir which gives the Russians an even chance?

Im winning as russian one game <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

boba · Post by **boba** » Thu Nov 01, 2001 8:41 pm

Originally posted by Matthew Buttsworth:
I am just about to lose a game as Russian despite having concentrate almost wholly on repeated layers of ever deeper and deeper defence.
My feeling is the odds are stacked against Russia in this version and that it is almost impossible to survive, let alone win, as Russian.
Does anyone else agree with this? Has anyone won as Russian?
Are their any plans for a 3.2 version of Wir which gives the Russians an even chance?

I'm playing my first game (as German), and I've already captured Leningrad in start of September! Not only that, I'm pretty confident I can take Moscow before blizzard comes, and even Stalingrad is not out of the reach since I've crushed Russian southern flank and whole 1st Panzer army can advance without opposition. Now, on previous version I had to work *very* hard to just take Leningrad, not to mention Moscow, and such early success has come as suprise to me. I have a fealing that russian armies surrender and break to easy, but than again, it may be that I'm much more experienced now...

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Thu Nov 01, 2001 8:59 pm

I've just begun a PBEM game using my new plane stats and a 10 points initial experience increase for the Russians. We'll see if it makes any difference. I too find that the Soviet troops very rarely can stand their ground.

I agree that the Russians have a very tought time in 1941 in this version, but then again, it was touch and go there for a while. Since we do not know what chance the Germans actually had to conquer Moscow and Leningrad, its hard to tell if it's too easy or to hard in the game.

varjager · Post by **varjager** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 1:04 pm

Yogi! Let us know how it goes and if it turns out alright maybe you can share your new version with the rest of us?

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 2:55 pm

Well, I'm uising a custom map, but the new planes you can get here, but it will be hard to tell how the game turns out, balance-wise.

I mean, if I win playing Germany, does that mean play balance is not OK? I played against the computer with this +10 increase, and defeated it as thoroughly as usual - but I did notice a little harder resistance here and there.

If you want to try your hand at fiddling with the Soviet initial experience, I recomend using Rich Dionne's and Michael Fleshman'sWIR Excel Editor. EDITWIR will drive you round the bend if you try this.

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: Yogi Yohan ]</p>

Lorenzo from Spain · Post by **Lorenzo from Spain** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 3:56 pm

Originally posted by Matthew Buttsworth:
[QB]in this version and that it is almost impossible to survive, let alone win, as Russian.
Does anyone else agree with this? /QB]

I agree with you: this version is not well balanced. Now is possible (and easy) reach Moscow in september the first; this capital can´t resist an assault during september and october.

Of course, a very good player against the AI or a not experienced player can win as Russian; but is very difficult.

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 4:58 pm

I think it depends on the player on whether this is a balanced game or not. I myself dont push my Panzers too much and as the Russians I have stopped a German advance at Vyazma, and still hold Leningrad, also Rostov is also safe behind a secure front line. I even acording to the game recieved a Guards division (upgrade) at the battle around Kiev. My Soviet losses by the time of the Wet/Winter season stand around 39,000 and 5,600 tanks.

But then again thats me, I have heard of people having a much harder time. Maybe as in the last version house rules should apply. Like I said I dont storm ahead with Panzers, I mainly attack when in good supply and readiness.

boba · Post by **boba** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 7:51 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
Like I said I dont storm ahead with Panzers, I mainly attack when in good supply and readiness.

Well, I used to be cautious too, but (at least with AI) it has proven to be more effective strategy to press hard on Russians with Pz corps, not allowing them to regroup and consolidate. In my game, I've stopped only when I overstretched supply lines and had to wait couple of weeks for resupplying my forward Pz corps... But I still have a feeling that Russians are easier to beat than before...

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 9:24 am

I think it is a shame as a player in a pbem game to to ruin a good struggle by taking all the major cities in the 1st year.

I'd rather get very close to Moscow, surround Leningrad and the only city I really want to take is Rostov.

Otherwise you spend hours playing with someone for a result that to me means nothing but a small victory, when I would rather fight until 1945 and possibly lose. The games important, not the winning.

I'd hate to play somoeone who is so hell bent on winning that the game losses its fun.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 1:12 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:

The games important, not the winning.

I'd hate to play somoeone who is so hell bent on winning that the game losses its fun.

Can we give the brother an amen? AMEN, Brother Muzrub!

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 2:52 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
I think it is a shame as a player in a pbem game to to ruin a good struggle by taking all the major cities in the 1st year.

I'd rather get very close to Moscow, surround Leningrad and the only city I really want to take is Rostov.

Otherwise you spend hours playing with someone for a result that to me means nothing but a small victory, when I would rather fight until 1945 and possibly lose. The games important, not the winning.

I'd hate to play somoeone who is so hell bent on winning that the game losses its fun.

Muz

I think you are me reincarnated (hey,, i'm not dead yet)
One of 'those' players you are speaking of(the 'winner') comes from the same place as Basil's waiter(how faulty). And it seems (according to him ,that he can win as any side)
Winning is not the question. If i were to play the germans in 3.1 i would limmit myself in how far i would go in each turn(as the land game is unballanced) To go all out in 3.1 is to deny the existance of the enemy and take his victory cities without him having a chance to stop you. Why bother to play if this is your aim? I could win at chess playing a 3 year old but would i start the game at all?
There are deep questions of neurotic unballance behind the 'win at all costs' mentallity. Most of the worlds problems stem from them.

Loki

PS. Remember i am talking of a game. In a real world situation, certain bigmouths would last about 11 seconds. (hehe)

boba · Post by **boba** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 9:42 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
I'd hate to play somoeone who is so hell bent on winning that the game losses its fun.

My sentiments exactly <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . I was talking of game against AI, which I only started to see what are the changes in this new WiR (I used to play old game version from '92 or so). I always thought that to play as Germans and never have Tigers and Panthers in your Pz Corps is not game at all <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . If nothing, I always liked a look of them when you are browsing through your army <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> . And I was used for tough resistance even from AI so imagine my surprise I found myself in Leningrad in September '41! Anyway, I guess that when you are playing against human (which is the real fun, and I just started one game) there isn't such German superiority in '41...

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 11:33 pm

I could win at chess playing a 3 year old but would i start the game at all?

ahh there is the key, where is fun!!!!!!

You have to have balanced game no matter what game allows you to do!
Otherwise what is the point?

Win or lose the struggle if the main feature!

Thats what the Eastern front is about! Its about a struggle. Thats what all or at least some of us know. The Eastern front is more than a conflict a war or a sideshow of WW2. Its a struggle!

A balance, its more than an idea its one of the greatest battles ever! In its most minute and its grand plan. Its not about military might, but people and ideology. Its a clash between what central europe thought was right ( germany) and what socialism fought for, a chance for the people.

Alas a soviet union under stalin could not grasp that concept, for the people. But between players we can. We can SEE the bigger picture, the idea, the struggle and its more than just sqds lost.
When I play I see the soldier, I hate the losses.

I myself think too many people here worry about the victory.....thats all

BUT THE EASTERN FRONT IS ABOUT STRUGGLE.

Thats the fun and the sad loss of histroy.

One man created the idea and his officers supported his illusion. And his struggle...no!
His illusion of greatness was paid in full with the loss of many brave and at times many 'more' scared men.

Thats why I take offence when someone says its not fair..the FW should do this, the Yak should do that... but thats game play. Its is a game, for us.

The game is balanced if you play the right MAN not a child who needs a victory to be a man.

[ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: Muzrub ]</p>

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:42 am

very well said Muzrub. Especially the last sentence.
Thank you too for your many funny commentaries. I have enjoyed reading them immensely.

varjager · Post by **varjager** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 2:49 am

Well i belive in the fun of the game.But i must also say that there is no point in playing if you dont aim for the victory.But i have a feeling that WIR brings out the best in the people.At least the people i play against.In my PBEM games i have noticed that some play realy good and use a sound strategy.Loki for one is a very good player,Muzrub also.So lets enjoy the game and try to top history!

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 3:38 am

Really its amazing. None likes to win. Change the history is guilty? Loki speak too much but really he is bad player. Loki, talk about our game and the things I didnt make as german.
Muzrub are you also a loser? Because both are brothers in arms...
Varjager, really thinks Loki is a good player?
Ed, ..., I know your attitude.

I play for fun and if not my guilty wins every game I play. Ok some day I will lose but I wont cry as others.If I can get Moscow why not take it?

Really its amazing...

Josans · Post by **Josans** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 3:53 am

Originally posted by Muzrub:

The game is balanced if you play the right MAN not a child who needs a victory to be a man.

[ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: Muzrub ]

Oh Really also you are a loser as Loki. Im not a child. I dont need a victory to be a man. Really I dont need nothing you can get. You can live your own world of imagination (of course with your friends) but I believe that only losers speak about that. Try to improve yourself better than criticize.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:09 pm

Originally quoted by Josan:
Oh Really also you are a loser as Loki. Im not a child. I dont need a victory to be a man. Really I dont need nothing you can get. You can live your own world of imagination (of course with your friends) but I believe that only losers speak about that. Try to improve yourself better than criticize.

Josan, why in the hell is it that whenever someone talks about the motivations of players of this game, that you feel you've been personally attacked? To my knowledge none of us here up to this point were even talking about you, nor were we talking about "exploits" or bugs in the game nor did anyone mention the "Pz Korps in the backfield" issue. We were simply talking about the mindset of the players.

The history underpinning this simulation is a vast human tragedy of immense porportions. The scope of the human suffering was staggering. The human wave attacks by the Red Army early on because human bodies were the only thing the had to throw at the enemy, the horrific fighting where later on Russians would fight to the death rather than surrender to SS units knowing that surrender was the equivalent of death anyway, the Germans would just run their tanks over the Russian trenches to crush or suffocate them in these cases, the Jews massacred by the Gestapo and SS, the purges of the paraniod Stalin against his army, the deaths of millions who were sent east to gulags because Stalin believed that they were "tainted" by living under German rule, the resistance groups on BOTH sides, pro and anti Communists who spent more time killing Russian civilians than Germans or even each other, the brutality of German occupation driven by Hitler's racist belief about Slavs being of an inferior race. There are many more points like these, and many in this forum can add to this list (and please do).

To you and others this is just old history and thats fine, but for the rest of us, this knowledge and the awareness of what was actually happening when we push counters across hexes on a map is an important part of this game, it gives us a backdrop to the war that no simple book can. Contrary to popular myth, I believe wargamers are the ones who understand the horrors of war more than *anyone* else, because for us, playing the game is also reliving history. Well, obviously not all wargamers..... This does NOT mean we want the game to play like the war did historically every time, only that the game be as accurate as it can to support the belief that things could have turned out the way they historically, as they do in the game.

You obviously are not concerned with the history, just using every advantage the game provides to win and thats fine. Your entitled to your opinion Josan, but that is all it is, an OPINION. This sure as *HELL* doesn't mean we must "improve" ourselves "rather than criticize". It is you who is handing out criticism to others based on nothing more than *your* idea of how the game should be played and how players should approach the game. Your assumption that you are right and we are wrong in thinking about the ways this game should be played is precisely the attitude that has gotten you into so much trouble in the past, and here has done so again. And if you keep calling other players "losers" because they don't agree with you, I'm really going to lose my temper.....

Ed "Just Another Loser" Cogburn

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:43 pm

Originally posted by Josan:
Really its amazing. None likes to win. Change the history is guilty? Loki speak too much but really he is bad player. Loki, talk about our game and the things I didnt make as german.
Muzrub are you also a loser? Because both are brothers in arms...
Varjager, really thinks Loki is a good player?
Ed, ..., I know your attitude.

I play for fun and if not my guilty wins every game I play. Ok some day I will lose but I wont cry as others.If I can get Moscow why not take it?

Really its amazing...

Josan

Well umm.
How about the story of my game with Svar.
We started a modified '41 game way back and Svar as the germans has been grinding me back, month after month, year after year till now it is Aug 44 and the soviets are just hanging there by their fingernails. I have lost this game but you know what? This one game has taught me more about how to play WiR than all the others combined. Svar is a hammer that has beaten a relative novice at the game into someone who can do well in just about any situation. (Except where he has me now. hehe)

However, as the soviets in 3.1 no amount of skill will help them against a half decent player. And as i said in my email when i conceeded the game (after a PzKps rolled through 2 defence lines then into Moscow in the 3rd week of august) You played well.
Your reply email...
If i remember right, you said that the germans had been under heavy restrictions as they did not use air supply after 2nd turn in July......
The rest of your letter was telling me i did'nt know how to use the VVS and that i knew nothing about the true power of the luftwaffe in your hands.

Quote you
"Loki speak too much but really he is bad player."

Your opinion of my playing skills means zero to me. As do you.

Nick. LokioftheAesir